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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?

840 replies

HermioneWeasley · 20/09/2016 19:55

So, scholarship to support women in STEM - a massive issue for all societies that we're not harnessing th talents of half our populations in this area.

But if you "identify as a woman in a way that's meaningful to you" you can apply.

What the ever loving fuck?

Another example of the damage being done to actual women, by saying that "woman" is a feeling in a man's head.

To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?
To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?
OP posts:
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12
shins · 26/09/2016 16:55

Men are not just "other". They are bigger, stronger, have higher testosterone and are far more prone to sexual and other forms of violence. It's naive to assume a level playing field or to characterise women's natural wariness of strange men in situations where they're vulnerable as conditioning. Don't compare wanting sex segregated changing rooms to those neurotic segregated societies where women are covered up in public, it isn't the same at all.

Inertia · 26/09/2016 16:56

But nor should the answer to humiliating behaviour be to force children and teenagers to change in front of others, particularly members of the opposite sex Ice.

If you want to campaign for access to non-segregated changing rooms and a more open approach to nudity, feel free to go ahead. But you don't have the right to force girls and women to be part of the same principles.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/09/2016 17:07

I suspect that a lot of blokes would be quite uncomfortable with unsegregated changing rooms because, whether or not they actually think with their dick, it may have a mind of it's own.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 26/09/2016 17:24

I don't think it's just novelty that causes sex crime, Ice. Are you seriously contending that if women and girls were less concerned about privacy that they'd be safer from male predation? If you put it like that it really doesn't sound likely.

I certainly wouldn't be keen on getting nude in public as a means of reducing rape, which is what you seem to be recommending.

shins · 26/09/2016 20:43

And no, I don't think my daughter's unwillingness to be undressed in front of men is conditioning either. Her body has started to change and she's aware of it. She instinctively feels more at ease around girls and women now that she's moving out of the relative androgyny of childhood. It's a natural shift and has to do with biological sex rather than made-up "gender" nonsense.

OlennasWimple · 27/09/2016 00:24

Anyone who has been on holiday to countries such as Greece, where topless and near nude sunbathing is fairly standard knows that exposure to naked bodies has not made those men less likely to harass and threaten women in any way at all

IceBeing · 27/09/2016 13:23

I looks like we have a far higher rate of rape than Greece...although I have only checked one source for the figures.

WinchesterWoman · 27/09/2016 13:39

Ice - you take the biscuit. Why don't you even listen and try to understand

IceBeing · 27/09/2016 14:06

sorry, I didn't realise facts would be so unwelcome.

I already agreed that we can't force change on people socialised to body shame and thinking of men as alien.

What we could choose to do is bring up a new generation who don't view modesty of women as a virtue or experience body shame.

WinchesterWoman · 27/09/2016 14:09

Or we could stick with what's worked for years and keep men out of female spaces

IceBeing · 27/09/2016 14:36

you call this working? Why do we have such a high rape rate? Why are women abused for breast feeding?

I have the expectation on society that women should be safe anywhere, in any state of undress. Saying we are only safe in demarcated 'women zones' is abandoning the war altogether.

WinchesterWoman · 27/09/2016 14:38

Breastfeeding?

venusinscorpio · 27/09/2016 15:07

It's not just about safety, it's about privacy, dignity and comfort. Your straw man does nothing to address these issues.

WinchesterWoman · 27/09/2016 19:06

I'm back now. Ice it's an impressive derail I must say. Breastfeeding issues? You're blaming that on women wearing too many clothes in public, am I right? So all men and all women should not worry about getting their clothes off with strangers at any time that will end sexual assault and male violence?

Is this your hypothesis? And how long do you think it will take to train people to get used to this? How do you propose you train people to get used to this? Do you want to start in schools? So teenagers will all get naked together in sports changing rooms? How many sexual assaults and rapes are the appropriate price to pay while we all adopt your 'naked with strangers' idea?

Alternatively - let's not because it's a stupid idea, damn straight.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 27/09/2016 19:14

I don't think anyone is thinking of men as "alien", Ice. What a weird thing to say. We're thinking of them as the sex that is responsible for nearly all sex and violent crime. Women have excellent reasons for being cautious while in a state of undress.

Breastfeeding? Are you serious? What a pointless attempt at a derail.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 27/09/2016 20:32

I think modesty is a bit of a virtue. I think it's healthy and natural. We're not animals. Some parts of the body are a big deal to show to others.

I like men being excited by breasts. I don't want men to become completely desensitised to female nudity. They're responsible for what they do about it (same as I am in response to them). I'm not prepared to give that up for a (highly theoretical) reduction in sexual assault.

I also don't like men in my space unless I've invited them in. So I'm not prepared to have men in women only spaces even if it were proved to bring sexual assault down - though anyone who thinks it would is up a tree.

There's a strange blindness about some kinds of feminism. It's as if a feminist thinks, 'We ought to be able to do that. But it's not safe to do that. But let's do it anyway and say it should be safe and maybe one day it will be safe because we've Won the War'. The problem is most sexual predators don't give a monkeys what war you're fighting or how people ought to be. They see an opportunity and they take it.

kua · 27/09/2016 21:24

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 27/09/2016 21:26

What are trying to say? I'm baffled.

IceBeing · 27/09/2016 21:33

yeah...this is exactly what happens on bullying threads.

Should I tell my kids to stop wearing/doing X in case they get bullied? Yes of course. No parent would want their kid bullied....

Then there are like one or two lost voices in the wilderness saying...erm...don't you think its the bully's behaviour that should change?

But no, I don't think women should hide their bodies, hide themselves in female spaces and avoid men. I don't think it is practical...and guess what it isn't...because they have to go out of those spaces and then what happens?

99.9% of the space is mixed. Having 0.1% that isn't doesn't stop rape, or assault....but it does promote segregated thinking, sexism, and body shame. Not sure what the pros are tbh.

Having female only toilets won't stop a determined rapist. Having non-rapists with penises in same toilets as women won't cause rape. The problem is rape and rapists, and single sex toilets don't solve those problems.

kua · 27/09/2016 21:42

What bullying ice? I did not understand the pp. I have no idea why that has spurred your rant.

However, thanks for clarifying your thought process, tis very helpful but possibly not in the way you would have hoped.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 27/09/2016 21:44

Having female only toilets won't stop a determined rapist.

This is absurd. It will make it much more difficult for a rape to occur in that area. That's a win, actually.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 27/09/2016 21:47

I was referring to PP gnetosee too, Ice.

Please accept my congratulations on your use of language, kua. Elegant.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 27/09/2016 21:49

Pros of segregated space...

I like most men not seeing me undressed. I like not having to worry about whether this will happen in some areas. I'm not ashamed of my body, I just like to share it with carefully selected individuals. And I like the fact that sleezy chaps have to go and find somewhere else to be sleezy; no they should be sleezy to begin with, but given that they are, I like that women have an area where such individuals can't go. And yes, women are safer in these areas because it's harder for a man to go unnoticed somewhere he is not supposed to be.

WankingMonkey · 27/09/2016 21:49

I looks like we have a far higher rate of rape than Greece...although I have only checked one source for the figures.

Thats actually quite interesting. Having lived in Greece (or Zante..same thing really) I honestly found a hell of a lot more unwelcome male attention there than I ever have in the UK. Of course there is the possibility that the way of life over there causes more attention but less...sexual assault? Or of course, maybe I am just more desirable in Zante than I am here. What I heard a lot though was that 'British girls are easy'..so again, maybe the attention was because I didn't look like a typical Greek woman (who is apparently less 'easy' than BritishConfused) or something...not sure where I am going with this tbh.

WinchesterWoman · 27/09/2016 21:51

Probably something to do with reporting WM