To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?

[HermioneWeasley]

So, scholarship to support women in STEM - a massive issue for all societies that we're not harnessing th talents of half our populations in this area.

But if you "identify as a woman in a way that's meaningful to you" you can apply.

What the ever loving fuck?

Another example of the damage being done to actual women, by saying that "woman" is a feeling in a man's head.

I had never thought of it from that angle at all. Yes, Muslim women would not be able to (for example) take off their headscarves or even adjust...in the loos anymore as men could be in there...interesting. If there are no same sex facilities, indeed..would they even be able to attend...questions questions

If any fucker comes on here now and tells me I'm transphobic they can piss the piss off. My daughter may have a naked man walk in on her in the shower. So angry.

The women will be told they cannot attend by family members rather than let them share intimate facilities with men. So it will be women that will suffer. As always.

I presume, same women would not be able to attend 'same sex' colleges and such either. Not sure if we have the 'identify as' rule for those here yet but they have it in America already

It's pretty much crept in by the back door anyway, with organisations falling over themselves to be righteous and "progressive" and not to risk upsetting the trans lobby or being accused of discrimination.

I'm just so sick of it. And these men can get so tetchy if they're not validated as 'women'. What happens if one turns nasty? What happens if my daughter's alone and has a 'shock' reaction and they get offended? Or they complain of transphobia if she immediately turns away/leaves etc. They could make anything up and the sympathy is all with them.

see it was people like just's child that I do think should be eligible for the fellow ship under discussion....and I also agree with whoever said that the rights of such children are being just as surely chucked under the bus by the TA movement as those of women.

I don't entirely agree with the 'women/girls need to change separately from penises' argument either. Other cultures don't insist on this and seem to do very well out of it. I personally feel less embarrassed changing in front of men than women...well less judged anyway.

I think we need to look wholesale at why nudity is still so taboo and body shame so prevalent in this country...I don't think it is helping anyone.

Oh do me a favour

Seriously you don't mind so hard luck for a 14 year old finding herself naked in the shower with a naked man? Or a 40 year old? Or an 80 year old?

That idea can shove it

It's just stupid. Lose the argument over transwomen being fully intact men so resort to the 'oh we should just all be more free with our bodies' argument

Pffffffffffffffft

I forgot this was the scholarship thread. Soz Hermione.

Just because you are happy with men letting it all hang out in front of you or having to have them in there with you while you get naked doesn't mean the majority of women are. I feel quite comfortable saying that they aren't. And it is likely to mean that certain groups of women will have to retreat from public life. Or realistically they will probably use disabled single cubicle toilets/changing to avoid this or will be encouraged to do so by others, which will be another problem.

I don't entirely agree with the 'women/girls need to change separately from penises' argument either. Other cultures don't insist on this and seem to do very well out of it. I personally feel less embarrassed changing in front of men than women...well less judged anyway.

This isn't the argument as such though. Its a simple question of it you think we as a society need sex-segregated areas.

Now if you don't, great. I disagree with that view as I think some areas really do need sex-segregation but I can understand the position if this is your view.

The view that makes no sense to me is saying you do think we need sex-segregated areas. But then at the same time saying those who 'identify' as the opposite sex should be able to use said areas. In effect, we need sex-segregation but thoughts overrule all. We need to be sex-segregated but not always.

This is where I feel TAs and such were very clever in their mixing up of sex and gender. No area is 'gender' segregated.

Yy to that. If you want to desegregated areas go ahead and campaign for that. Not for men to get into women's spaces.

I agree with WM that getting rid of sex segregation entirely is more logically consistent.

Hum. Nonsegregated changing with cubicles and group rooms works fine at the local swimming pool. Mostly adults and kids. I'm not entirely sure that the same level of civilised behaviour would always apply in a uni. Maybe i'm being unfair.

I wouldn't use a non segregated communal changing room. So I expect a lot of women just stay away.

I've never been in a dry sports changing that had only cubicles though. Only a big communal room. Showers at my gym are cubicles but you have to take off your towel at some point

It's fine if the non segregated spaces offer the appropriate level of privacy. Currently most do not as they were intended to be segregated. And we do have sex segregated facilities now, but as WankingMonkey says, sometime the opposite sex are allowed to use them. And there is nothing we can do. Presently the women's loos in my workplace are unisex. The men's are not.

I actually cannot make any sense of the view that we do need sex-segregated areas but we should allow transgender people(Note. 'transgender' does not mean post-op transsexual) to use them.

Can someone who holds this view please explain it to me? To help me understand a bit better?

As anytime its asked people scream transphobia and leave, but I genuinely cannot see how one could possibly hold that view?

Also sex-segregated areas do not just mean loos and changing rooms, so no 'separate cubicles...whats the issue' stuff. This means the likes of all girls schools, hostels, rape crisis centres and such aswell.

yep the idea we need single sex spaces and then we put both sexes in them is indeed batshit.

I would rather we desegregated all public spaces and put in space for people who want/need to get naked individually.

Most swimming pools (near me that I have been into) manage to handle this fine. Big space for communal changing several individual stalls for those that need them.

I think it would massively help if we didn't tell kids as young as 4 that they shouldn't be seen changing by their peers or the opposite gender. There is absolutely no need for this and it artificially increases the gender divide where none need exist at all.

Icebeing sometimes kids decide that for themselves. We are casual about nudity in my house -as in we're generally clothed but no-one is bothered by someone wandering from the bathroom to the bedroom without being fully covered up or whatever. But my daughter is approaching adolescence and doesn't like to be undressed in front of her brothers or her dad. She's fine with me and other women. That is not repression or neurosis; it's quite normal for young girls and her right to privacy is respected. It's part of the nastiness of the pro-trans getting everything they want agenda - to characterise as uptight prudes women who don't want to share intimate space with men. It's bullying.

yy shins. My DD and I go sailing together, communal single-sex changing room, no cubicles. She and most of the other teenage girls take their swimming cossies into the loo to do that part of changing, and avert their eyes from the adults. The little kids will happily bare all and gaze frankly. I can't remember when this degree of 'modesty' appeared - maybe acquired in school changing rooms.

shins so you don't think your DD's need to hide her body from male relatives has been influenced by years of changing separately from boys at everywhere from school to swimming to clothes shops etc.? You think she arrived at this stand point entirely unaided by societal pressure?

I am certain we need to respect girl's and women's need for privacy in this crazy world of body shame we have created...I just think we should be taking action now so that the next generation of children don't automatically feel ashamed of their naked body, and don't feel so sexist about who to be most ashamed in front of.

There have been threads on here where changing separately is the only possible option to dealing with boys or girls making fun of each others bodies. I don't agree. The answer to bullying or humiliating behaviour should never be to tell the victim to hide themselves away.

OK I understand your viewpoint in that case.

I do think we need sex segregated areas personally as the amount of male on female sexual violence is insane. Until this stops, I do feel women need to be safe from men at times.

But I can totally get the argument if its about doing away with segregation alltogether. Just seems weird when people argue that we need separate rooms, then say some can go in.

I also wonder though, if segregation adds to the male violence issue. I think it exaggerates the 'otherness' of women to men...adds to their mystery and inaccessibility.

How easy would it be to be excited by a flash of breast if you have seen real normal female breasts every other day your whole life?

Anyway...the reality is we live in Victorian-baggage land. I predict it will be another 200 years before we generate kids without body shame...its just a bit shit to contemplate really.