To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?

[HermioneWeasley]

So, scholarship to support women in STEM - a massive issue for all societies that we're not harnessing th talents of half our populations in this area.

But if you "identify as a woman in a way that's meaningful to you" you can apply.

What the ever loving fuck?

Another example of the damage being done to actual women, by saying that "woman" is a feeling in a man's head.

JustThen nobody for a moment doesn't feel sympathy with anyone experiencing any kind of dysphoria. We know it's real, some of us have been through it and those who haven't can't imagine how hard it is.

However as venus said, it doesn't give anyone the right to stamp out the feelings, comfort and rights of women and girls, no one experience negates the fact that we're being thrown under the bus and I truly believe if trans people want safe spaces and recogntition on certain fields, it is up to them and trans allies to create and lobby for them (like feminists do for women) rather than expect women to scooch over and give up their hard earned spaces and recognition of their own. This thread mainly hinges on the concept of "identifying as a woman" - no one knows what that means, and the mere thought that 'woman' rides on just a rather subjective feeling is insulting to both bio women and those experiencing gender dysphoria

I don't think trans people are "lesser" at all

The end point of this as I see it is that genuine transpeople will also be thrown under the bus as the narcissists and attention seekers in the trans movement set the agenda and harden the battle lines. They will not compromise. Not on anything. They are having an effect on law, policy and in public life. And surely no one expects women just to roll over and suck it all up?

Exactly venus. To clump the likes of Justs DD (who is experiencing genuine dysphoria) in with the horrible excuse of a man (who doesn't have dysphoria but just wants to wear frocks) described in the OP is insulting!

I don't think anyone here is planning on discriminating against your child, just. I just don't want discrimination in favour of child at the expense of females. My child is as precious to me as yours is to you. And I don't want males in her spaces, in her sports, winning awards and scholarships - at her expense. My position is based on loving relationships and experience as well as sound principle. Yours is based on loving relationships but where is the sound principle? An appeal to my sympathy trigger my own deepest sympathy for the girls facing an uncertain and, for some, dangerous future because of transwomen.

Its horrible that TAs, in particular men who are still men, are encroaching on women's rights in a way which leads to a polarisation of positions. It doesn't serve people like Just and her child well. I sincerely hope that they get the support they need to help them both through what will inevitably be difficult years ahead, and that the child becomes an adult who accepts themselves (whether by then that be as a transwoman or a gender nonconforming man) and is accepted as such by society. I think that something akin to the GRC (though renamed to refer to sex not gender) is always going to be appropriate for transsexuals who've been medically treated and psychologically assessed to allow them to be fully accepted as their acquired sex.

Just I doubt anyone here views your child as "lesser". Recognizing your child as a boy with dysphoria is not hateful any more than recognizing an anorexic as a thin person with dysphoria rather than as the fat person they see in the mirror is hateful.

I hope your child is receiving support to explore the possibility of resolving the dysphoria without a lifetime of medical intervention and sterility.

JustTheOnceThen, is your child 11 years old? I ask because you mention what sounds like an 11 year old peer group but you also describe your child as a young woman which suggests older than that.

I don't have experience with a child who is being transitioned. I do have experience of anorexia however and I think the level of body dysphoria is comparable. I feel deep sympathy for any family who is dealing with body dysphoria in a child and I wish your child peace and happiness.

In no way do I think of children with body dysphoria as 'lesser', I do not however think that an anorexic child is fat or a male child is female. I do not agree with the transing of children because I think it is a self-fulfilling prophecy - social transition leads to a desire to delay puberty, delayed puberty is a temporary “solution” as a child cannot be held back forever and that leads to sex hormones, sex hormones lead to surgery. All of this leads to infertility and being medicalized for life. It also leads to living a life of illusion ; that it is possible to change one's sex and inevitable disappointment on discovery that not everyone is willing to collude with this illusion. I find calling a minor 'trans' or 'MTF / FTM' very very concerning. I do not understand or agree with a desire to label a child in a life changing way and I do not think that minors have the necessary maturity and life experience to make such decisions.

That doesn't mean that I have no sympathy with body dysphoria or that I don't think it is extremely difficult and distressing to cope with. It means I think the transing of minors is wrong and misguided. These children are not transgender IMO because transgender is a label that ethically should only be applied to an adult and it should be the adult who applies it to themselves. We keep hearing that trans is an identity - children should be allowed to develop their identities over a normal and natural timescale without external factors such as social transition or drugs. The human brain continues to mature until around the age of 25 with sex hormones playing a role in this process.

I am concerned by the increasing number of children being transed and I think the issue needs urgent and independent investigation.

There is no diagnostic test for the label of transgender and drugs are used off label for minors and long terms outcomes are unknown, untested, experimental and to my mind neither responsible science nor medicine.

JustTheOnceThen, you say this is the future - you are probably right. I think the future also holds a backlash on transgender ideology and medicalization but it doesn't bear thinking about how many people will be harmed along the way. Sheila Jeffreys describes transing as “surgically constructed heterosexuality” – I agree with her.

60 eleven year olds have accepted my kid as a girl - this is the future

Why? By what definition is your male child a girl?

This is what I cannot understand. Why do you not recognise a male child with dysphoria as Flora says? I too hope it can be resolved without a lifetime of medical intervention and sterility.

I have children around this age.

If told by the adults in their lives that a male member of their school was a girl they would accept that. Children are like that. I don't know if they would actually believe it however - I might ask my children.

Adults do not accept things in the same way as children however because our critical thinking skills are better developed and we have more control over our lives and world so we are harder to manipulate.

Sciencegrrl discusses the effect of demanding 50:50 in engineering. sciencegrrl.co.uk/demand-50-50/

NO CHANGE IN STANDARDS REQUIRED OR ACHIEVED. Girls want to engage but don't. This needs to be addressed. Society loses out when 50% of the population is excluded from making a contribution.

Oh, Dana, that so reminds me of my dad. If women aren't equal society loses their potential and we are all the poorer. I've heard him say that loads of times. He's 88.

Dana - thats an excellent initiative. Crucially, its enforcing 50:50 in a way which is not 'positive discrimination' or imposing quotas on degree places - but about equalising opportunity.

Wow yes, that's a brilliant initiative from UCL. So simple! Why aren't other universities following suit?

JustTheOnceThen

You story is extremely touching and emotional and I do feel the need to point out (yet again) that people who 'identify' as the opposite sex from a young age and actually experience 'gender dysphoria' (I prefer 'sex dysphoria' as I do not believe 'gender' is anything jmore than ones personality) are hugely different to the people who are actually causing issues with transsexual people right now. Transsexual (which your daughter is, if she hates her penis and such) people are different to 'transgender'. Transgender does not actually exist is you think through it properly, unless you buy into the whole girls must like pink dresses and hug everyone stuff. And no, transsexual people should not be discriminated against and made objects of hatred or anything. Not one person on this thread thinks that (and if they do, they would be shouted down by everyone else if they dared voice such a disgusting opinion) despite a few posters 'transphobia' shouts.

I wish your daughter all the best in the future, and see nothing wrong with her chosing to do things 'stereotypical female' and if she hates her male body so much that she wants to have surgery on it once she is old enough, thats also entirely her choice. But with respect, transsexual is a million miles away from transgender, as 'gender' does not even exist. If more transsexual people started to realise this then transsexuality would become distanced from the ridiculous notion of 'transgender'(current narrative, men who simply say they are women and thats that) and as such, transsexual people would not be lumped in with a bunch of misogynistic perverts as they are now. This is not the fault of transsexual people (most of which hate the idea of being mixed in with crossddressers, autogynephiliacs and 'transgender') but the fault of this ridiculous transumbrella notion that so many buy into. Transsexualism is different and people affected by this deserve empathy, understanding and support.

In short, I am apparently 'transphobic' as I refuse to acknowledge ladybrain and such. Because I think gender is nothing more than a personality traits (sometimes based on socialization), and as such there are actually 7 billion personalities in the world, a different 'gender' doesn't make you special as everyone else has a different 'gender' too. I think there is nothing wrong with an effeminate man, nor a masculine woman. And I think it is damaging to play along with the idea of a boy who has feminine traits actually being a girl and more than still a boy who does/likes things that have long been associated with the opposite sex.

Gender and sex have became massively muddled. I try to explain this in more detail here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2739808-Transgender-terminology if anyone is interested at all.

Again, transsexual is different to the 'transgender' that most have an issue with. Transsexual people do not deserve to be lumped in with these people.

Seeing that written down I realise I made a few little mistakes in it and it may also not come across exactly as I intended.

Transsexualism (which it sounds like your daughter has, given she hates her body and suffers dysphoria) is different to the whole transgender narrative. Everyone (or most people maybe) has sympathy for those who have dysphoria as it must be horrible and confusing. This is nothing to do with 'gender' though. Gender is someones personality and socialisation. It is fine for your daughter to 'live' as a woman in a stereotypical sense, which is the only way that makes any sense unless you believe in souls. Be this dressing in 'womens' clothes, having 'womens' traits and 'womens' interests. But woman is not a 'feeling' it is biological. The dysphoria your daughter feels means she is devastated with the body she has and feels she should have a womans body. Again something noone should trivialize and she should receive help and support and obviously be treat as no less of a human than anyone else, this has never been suggested. Noone considers trans people to be less than human. If your daughter feels surgery to make her body more like a womans is the answer for her, great, have that surgery (when she is old enough to understand the implications of it)

But again, gender is a social construct so I do not feel people like your daughter who suffer dysphoria should be lumped into a category of people who think 'gender' is the same as sex. It is not and never will be.

'Transgender' is damaging for those who are actually 'transsexual'.

I think that something akin to the GRC (though renamed to refer to sex not gender) is always going to be appropriate for transsexuals who've been medically treated and psychologically assessed to allow them to be fully accepted as their acquired sex.

Finally I agree with this. This does not have anything to do with 'gender'...again.

60 eleven year olds have accepted my kid as a girl - this is the future

I actually missed this part. Do you mean 60 eleven year olds have accepted your child as a boy who does not adhere to stereotypical norms? As this is whats happened. I am rather afraid by the thought of 'this is the future' if that involves transing more children when they are simply being themselves. Gender is nothing more than a personality. Sex cannot actually be changed. You can make yourself similar to the sex you feel you wish to be, via medical procedures and such. If this makes you happy, great. But this does not mean you have actually changed sex. And every transsexual person I have spoken to or read about agrees with this entirely. It is transgenders who push the 'its possible to change biological sex' narrative. It isn't.

Great that the kids at your childs school have accepted them for who they are though. THAT is the future. Not telling children that who they are, they can only be if they have a lifetime of medical intervention.

WankingMonkey I suspect that what that means is that 60 eleven year olds have been told to think that a child they know to be male is now female and that this is real and possible and they must now call this child she/her otherwise they are being unkind/wrong.

Something I don't personally think is much cause for celebration (JustTheOnceThen posts about it as though it is a Good Thing).

If thats what it means then its definitely not the step forward it is being lauded as. A step forward would be those same 60 children accepting the child for who he is. Period. Not for who he could maybe be 'close' to if he decides to go down the hormone surgery route.

Its a lot better than what might have been the case not so long ago - bullying and taunting. Kids not being shitty towards anyone who's different in any way is good in my book.

Its a lot better than what might have been the case not so long ago - bullying and taunting. Kids not being shitty towards anyone who's different in any way is good in my book.

This can be achieved without lying to children saying it is possible to actually become the opposite sex though surely.

Whats needed here is a change in parenting across the board really. Kids are accepting of anything by nature. Kids (without influence) would not taunt a boy who wore a dress and would not see it as an 'issue' at all. We have more and more children rejecting gender stereotypes. We should embrace this, not say that by rejecting these stereotypes,. they are actually the opposite sex. If that makes sense.

It is very very similar to the way girls could not wear trousers without being taunted...and now its acceptable. Imagine if back when this was going on, it suddenly became acceptable to say that women who wanted to wear trousers were actually men. I am near certain that the reason for more MTF than FTM transsexuals is because of this. It is 'normal' for a girl to be a tomboy. It is more looked down upon for a boy to be feminine.

For now its a better situation, I agree. But long term, when this child is told by everyone around them that they are actually the opposite sex, not so much. Not when 'treatment' for this is a lifetime of hormones and surgery that leaves them effectively infertile.

Oh, ITA WM. I just think its entirely understandable for a parent to be happy in these circs and maybe critiquing to much is a bit unfair. I think it was pretty brave of her to stick her head over the parapet.