To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?

[HermioneWeasley]

So, scholarship to support women in STEM - a massive issue for all societies that we're not harnessing th talents of half our populations in this area.

But if you "identify as a woman in a way that's meaningful to you" you can apply.

What the ever loving fuck?

Another example of the damage being done to actual women, by saying that "woman" is a feeling in a man's head.

Socialization is something that's done to you, not something you choose, Ice.

Doesn't matter how early a boy decides he's trans. He'll still benefit from male privilege . It's only if or when he becomes visibly gender non-conforming that he loses any of that privilege.

' self-identified as female from birth ' ... okaaay.... But chances are this remarkable child would still be gifted k'nex rather than baby dolls.

It doesn't matter how he identifies - a boy receives male socialisation. It might make him uncomfortable, but he is not, cannot be socialised as female.

"When it comes to 'does it actually reduce the effectiveness of the intervention to increase numbers of women in STEM to open the applications to a tiny subset of men who may themselves be from a disadvantaged underrepresented group'...then no...I am going to need to see evidence of a problem before taking up arms"

Where is the evidence that TW are underrepresented in STEM, please?

self-identified as female from birth

ice I self identify as zorro. I demand to be allowed to walk about with a sword, a big black hat and Cape and a mask over my eyes swishing z''s into everything and everyone that crosses my path.................doesn't mean I am zorro though does it........

Some transwomen find catcalling validating and empowering.

See Paris Lees for the fucking shite.

Many XX women find catcalling empowering too.

This is a bugbear of mine, calling catcalling etc. empowering. Having someone validate your attractiveness can make someone feel more confident in their value as assessed by others and give a boost to their ego which feels good. They're given confirmation that they're desirable, as an object at least. Being seen as a valuable object is more generally more pleasing than being seen as a worthless object. That's not really meaningful empowerment though, is it? What autonomous agency are you gaining?

In everything I have seen recently, the primary bias reducing the proportion of women in STEM is in the failure of women to apply in proportion with their number and qualification level.

We have many studentships open that have no female applicants, even though we know qualified female applicants exist.

So the relevant question is do TW apply in proportions indicative of their birth sex or their gender identity.

I do not know the answer to this. I am damn certain no one else on this thread does either. There is current research going on to answer this question both from the perspective of finding out whether the representation of TW in STEM mimics that of women or men, and from exploring the nature of the decision to apply and how that varies between men, women and apparently transgender too. When those studies are complete we will have a better idea what policy should be in this specific area.

Until then, and in the absence of actually data, I would expect TW to respond as women to the issue of whether they felt good enough to apply for a job in STEM, as the unconscious (false) loop of I am a women, society doesn't think women are good at STEM, I therefore am not as good in STEM, I won't apply, would be valid for TW as the key point is thinking 'I am a woman'.

If data comes out indicating the opposite then certainly they can rock right on with excluding TW from the fellowships...and re-including TM (by logical extension) with my full and honest blessing.

Personally I find catcalling degrading. I was simply pointing out that finding catcalling empowering is something that differentiates TW from XX women....as many XX women find it empowering too.

Can I just say I'm not thrilled at being referred to as an "XX woman". I tend to find that "woman" is a perfectly good description.

well normally I wouldn't...but in the case of threads like this it seems easier to communicate what you mean by over specifying....

I quite like the XX myself - unambiguous and scientific.

Ice, your expectations run counter to other peoples expectations and experience....without hard evidence that TW are in fact underrepresented, I find it baffling that they would go with current 'gender' (and include TW) rather than early socialisation and exposure to stereotype threat and include TM.

I will concede the point made earlier that perhaps proof should be required to gain inclusion rather than the other way around.....

It feels very harsh on a very disadvantaged discriminated against group...but on balance it is probably necessary and maybe even in their long term advantage to do so.

IceBeing do you think all sorts of men who lack confidence in whether to apply for STEM positions should be included? How about men from poor or uneducated backgrounds? Or men from ethnic minorities? Why extend your invitation only to men who transition?

The only answer I can think of is because ladybrain.

Which is misogynistic women erasing claptrap.

Either it's a scholarship for women or it's not. If men who transition fit the criteria that means they are being accepted as women. And as I said earlier that must be on the basis of ladybrain or some essentialist crap about "feminism essence". Both of these are nasty sexist oppressive stereotypes that women struggle against. Indeed they are the very fucking reason why men are over representated in the first place.

many women find catcalling empowering? I really dispute that. A small minority may enjoy it. From my experiences the majority find it at best unwelcome, if not offensive leading to downright threatening.

I also think it's sometimes complicated how women negotiate a patriarchal society. Whether women enjoy catcalling has to be considered in that context. PL was socialised as a man.

YANBU and I don't see how the OP is transphobic either. Questioning questionable people 'using' 'gender identity' to get their way is not transphobic. Hating and wishing harm on trans people is transphobic.

beach I don't know...what is 'ladybrain' defined as?

I think on average women absorb societies biases (such as thinking women aren't as good at STEM subjects as men), so I think women have common shared conceptual biases....

I think TW may or may not share those depending on how strongly and for how long they have identified as female.

If women and men were brought up in a wholly egalitarian non-sexist environment I do not believe there would be any difference in the brains of men and women, or their confidence in applying to STEM.

Whenever street harrassment comes up on MN I am gobsmacked and horrified by the number of women claiming they love being catcalled. Maybe the threads attract them but it looks about 50:50 on the average thread.

I've never met anyone IRL who said they liked being catcalled. There's a difference between men you're interacting with being a bit twinkly and flirty and some total randomer shouting things at you on the street. I'm past the being catcalled age and I don't miss it at all, it was horrible and intrusive.

Because unfortunately some women will fall over themselves to excuse a number of problematic male behaviours, Ice.

Oh my god I've not scratched into the apparently very complex world of mumsnet gender politics before but this is the second trans thread to punch me in the gut this week. I am a feminist yet my child is FTM trans. What should I do?

I have just got myself a username after years of lurking on AIBU - I'm shitting myself daring to contradict you all but nevertheless I'm going to just put this here then run away and never look back. Cowardly I know.

I would be interested to know if any of you has had the experience of watching a child they love very much endure the confusion and utter panic of gender disphoria.
If you have experienced this personally and you still hold on to your conviction that trans people are somehow 'lesser' or that their journey into womanhood is invalid, I would be amazed.
My child is ideologically not a 'woman' to some of you, but she is kinder and more lovely than I can express here. She has had the shitty luck to have been born with a penis that I can assure you she absolutely HATES. Years of fantastic support from family, friends, clinic and her school mean that she is a pretty cool young woman with lovely values and if you think that she is simply a 'cross dresser' or a bloke in a dress then sadly your understanding of what it means to be a compassionate human has gone awry.
She is not trying to reduce or erase your femaleness through identifying as a woman, in fact she would not have the slightest clue what that even means. 60 eleven year olds have accepted my kid as a girl - this is the future and I hope very much that all members of society can eventually catch up with them. FWIW I know this won't change your minds on such an emotional issue but sometimes ideology can get in the way of simple kindness and humanity and I had to say something in defence of my daughter and all those like her.
Oh by the way she is honestly crap at STEM subjects so I doubt she's likely to be a threat to any eager research students in the future. God knows I'm not saying your point of view is wrong, I wouldn't dare, but I have just tucked up my living breathing trans daughter and I am scared for the rejection and the stone cold contempt waiting for her out there. She doesn't deserve discrimination any more than you do. That's all there is to it.
Trans issues are really complicated and I wish my kid had an easier route through life but it is what it is. Knowing her has made me question so many aspects of my own female identity, and gender roles, that I am much more wary of judging others than once I was. So I suppose I'm nicer than I used to be. Which can only be a good thing, right? And on that bombshell, I bid you all goodnight.

Er MTF obvs sorry about that!!

In the nicest possible way, I sympathise with you and I appreciate its hard for you and your child, but I don't appreciate how dismissive you are of the very real concerns many women have. And I'm not going to sanction being women's rights being chucked under the bus to validate people's feelings. Because it doesn't appear that you care one little bit about mine.