To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?

[HermioneWeasley]

So, scholarship to support women in STEM - a massive issue for all societies that we're not harnessing th talents of half our populations in this area.

But if you "identify as a woman in a way that's meaningful to you" you can apply.

What the ever loving fuck?

Another example of the damage being done to actual women, by saying that "woman" is a feeling in a man's head.

It's actually a Rich Tea but it woke up this morning identifying as a jammy dodger, I hope you are not trans-biscuit phobic!

I just had coffee and cookies

Whether or not they "make an effort to live as women" (whatever that means) is not the issue here. They have not faced the disadvantages women do due to their biology and socialisation, but another different set of disadvantages. So they need their own scholarships, awards etc.

pan

Turns out i am trans-biscuit phobic

Whats wrong with you!!! Getting my hopes up

Thats not helping beyond

Off to work now...5 hours with no break or biscuits

Reading comprehension, 0/10

"The gender based social conditioning you refer to only happens to female..."

Well the you in that sentence is me, and I can assure you that I was talking about the gendered social conditioning that affects us all.

The gender based socialisation of boys wrt STEM is that, yes, this is for us. They experience the opposite of a stereotype threat. So yes, absolutely social conditioning applies to everyone but not in the same direction.

The gendered social conditioning that affects us all doesn't affect women and men in anything like the same way, though, that's the whole point, myown.

You are being obtuse.

Gender socialisation happens to us all.
The female side only to females, the male side only to males.

Even if the scholarship applies to people socialised as the female gender rather than female sex, it still only applies to females.

Transwomen are not socialised as females any more than they are the female sex.

Gender socialisation happens to us all.
The female side only to females, the male side only to males

Yes, this is what I was disagreeing with. I think it's more complicated than that.

Ok myown, how is it more complicated? In what way? I'm genuinely interested to hear your view.

Likewise.
(People may think otherwise, but on behalf of mn feminism I like people who genuinely engage :) )

Well for a start I think there are lots of competing and contradictory ideas about gender which can operate simultaneously and have different effects on different individuals and have greater or lesser prominence in particular social milieu.

I don't think that there is one set of assumptions governing female gender and another governing male gender, but that all gendered assumptions feed into creating concepts of gender and gender difference.

I also think that although people are treated a certain way because of their sex, they are also treated differently if they act in a way that doesn't conform to perceived notions of how their sex does behave and that this different treatment (e.g. the way a 'laddish' little boy is treated is different from the way an 'effeminate' one is) so that two members of the same gender might experience quite different policing of their gender.

I also think that someone who does not identify with the gendered ideas that are presented as normal for their sex has a different experience as someone who does.

In short I don't see gender as a two monoliths that are created separately, but instead as collection of overlapping and contradictory expectations which everyone is exposed to and which might affect individuals in different ways.

I agree that misogyny is a strong force in society and to be combatted. But for me one of the important ways it comes through is through fear and hatred for trans-people, who suggest that male-ness and female-ness might not be as self-evident and natural as some would like.

I agree that an effeminate male may be treated differently to a butch male, and the same with female. I just don't think that an effeminate male and female would be treated the same, and from what you posted, I don't think you do either? Nor do I think that the non-conforming example of each would be treated the same.

So both male examples still come under male, and both female examples come under female (this would be much easier if I could draw what I mean!)

Meaning it is still fair to say that males do not experience female gender socialisation?

:)

Yes, I agree with you that overtly gender non conforming boys and girls may sometimes be treated differently. Where I don't agree with you is that their experience has anything significant in common with how the opposite biological sex is treated. So a gender non conforming girl is not treated like a boy. She doesn't get the advantages of being a boy. Male is the default. She's a non man, just like gender conforming women are.

My point is that there is no one single "female gender socialisation". No of course a trans man will not have the same experience as a cis man. They also haven't had the same experience as a cis woman. Come to that, all trans men haven't had the same experience nor all cis men etc. However, this doesn't make it impossible that aspects of their experience are similar. For example, I would agree that cis men and cis women have important differences in gender experience from trans men and women. And that cis men and trans women will have had gender experiences in common. As will cis women and trans women. And that, for example, men from certain social classes have gender experiences in common with cis women from all classes that men from other social classes don't share. In short, I don't find it helpful to say, the female gender IS this list of attributes, and this is what a woman is, because ultimately these are socially constructed concepts which change over time and vary in the same time period for different people.

To me, the idea that the patriarchy produces disadvantages only for cis women and not for other trans people seems unlikely, to put it mildly.

Using cis and trans as the only identifiers erases (literally murdering...) non binary people

I don't think anyone said patriarchy only disadvantages "cis" women?

venusinscorpio my point is not that we can say that different groups have identical experiences. The point "male is the default" is the key. Society measures things in difference from men, and men means cis straight-acting biological men. Transphobia, homophobia, misogyny, sexism, macho-ism are all ways in which a certain ideal is promoted and policed imo. That's not to say that all those things are the same.

So what it comes down to is that the only way to differentiate male and female is by biological sex? I agree.

Myownprivateidaho; I read through your post with dismay.

If a male become 'trans' at 60 - how is he negatively affected by the patriarchy? He is the patriarchy.

That's the whole point though, innit? The patriarchy sucks for everybody, as is made evident by all these examples of how anyone who doesn't knuckle down to it suffers - so let's SMASH THE PATRIARCHY!

Using cis and trans as the only identifiers erases (literally murdering...) non binary people

Well, I don't say that cis and trans are the only identifiers. My entire point is that there's no such thing as THE female gender, for a start. But that doesn't mean that they're not useful labels for some purposes. I don't think that sexuality is a straight-forward binary either, but gay, bi and straight people are still useful labels -- the fact that they don't encompass all sexual experience doesn't mean we have to dispense with them.

I'll get me hammer, pun

No there's no such thing as the female gender (except as a social construct of behaviours traditionally attributed to women). Which is why we use biological sex to determine men and women.