To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?

[HermioneWeasley]

So, scholarship to support women in STEM - a massive issue for all societies that we're not harnessing th talents of half our populations in this area.

But if you "identify as a woman in a way that's meaningful to you" you can apply.

What the ever loving fuck?

Another example of the damage being done to actual women, by saying that "woman" is a feeling in a man's head.

Full - re "I think we've reached this topics natural conclusion now, with each party unwilling to move"

Er... Was I wrong to take your "Good points, Cote" as acknowledgement that you had changed your position and understood why males who "feel" they should be women should not be considered for women's positions?

MyOwnPrivateIdaho

The gender based social conditioning you refer to only happens to females . MtT will not have experienced this social conditioning. Hence the scholarship should go to those who have experienced the social conditioning I.e. women.

Yes Cote I have always agreed with that. Its the fairness of "women's positions" I disagree with.

Hence I can't get behind the idea that with the trans caveat, the scholarship has now become "unfair".

Do we know how many men who claim to be trans who make no effort to live as women have applied for and received STEM scholarships? We need to get a handle on how much of a problem this is in reality.

Judy

Good question, I suspect not many "men" at all. Another reason why the fairness level of the scholarship hasn't shifted a great deal

"Or in this case, this person might be disadvantaged, but in a different way, but isn't really a large enough group for their own scholarship, so we'll throw them in with the vagina lot. Arguably not fair should a woman miss out on a scholarship, but the system was anything but fair (for individual women and men) in the first place."

You seem to have moved from "It's perfectly fair on women to give their scholarships to men" to "ok, so actually doing that will only benefit the men and might well be unfair in the women but I don't care - life's unfair, whaddaya gonna do?

I guess that's progress in the argument, of a kind...

"Its the fairness of "women's positions" I disagree with."

Why?

Do you disagree with scholarships in general?

Do you disagree with scholarships for disabled people and black youths, for example?

What seems to be the problem with giving scholarships to women?

I don't think there's any evidence that all these naughty men are signing up for women's scholarships as trans women for shits and giggles.

There's a lot more evidence that trans women instead receive massively more in the way of harassment, abuse, and marginalization. And posts like these absolutely contribute to that.

I disagree that social conditioning only happens to women! We're all conditioned I'm afraid. And agree that the scope of this matters hugely. If it were the case that men were simply rocking up at interviews at a dress and scooping up scholarships that would be one thing. But there's no evidence that that is happening, or even that any trans-woman has received a scholarship.

judy

My understanding was that this is the first scholarship offered on these terms

So until the applications are gathered in we wont know how much of a problem it is

And of course you are never going to be able to tell the difference between clare who feels like a woman or clare who is a woman on an application

But i do realise that you were being sarky with your post

And brilliant logic there yummy

Sorry folks, but I'm not repeating myself any more. I thought we for somewhere but obviously not

I'm out

I hope nobody's scholarship is taken from them by a man who identifies as a trans serial killer

my

No one said that social conditioning happens only to women

rufus see itsallgoingtobefine's post at 08:05:55

Back up a second. I understand tummy if you think what you are writing is nice and fair, but you think it is logical??

Judy, how many more female serial killers can you name without googling? not that I'm expecting a sensible answer

Reading comprehension, 0/10

"The gender based social conditioning you refer to only happens to female..."

39, no one is disputing that transpeople are on the recieving end of harassment. What people are disputing is transwomen being able to apply for a women's scholarship. It's not a scholarship for "every minority group that has ever been discriminated against".

myownprivateidaho

She is talking about female socialisation in reference to the womens scholarship program. Why would she talk about black or ethnic, male, disabled, socialisation?

If we were discussing a different type of scholarship then we would be talking about other socialisation and disadvantages in the relevant area.

Yes, myown, we're all conditioned. And men are conditioned differently. Trans women have been conditioned and socialised differently to women. Therefore where they need help they need different "gender" help to women. I.e scholarships endowed for trans people rather than appropriating those for women.

"Sorry folks, but I'm not repeating myself any more. I thought we for somewhere but obviously not"

Or, you've realised that your arguments make no sense, you can't even keep them straight yourself so you're admitting defeat and fucking off.

What a surprising turn of events, that's never happened before.

myown

I did see that, but i think you may have misread it

yummy

I will give you this, you don't take anything personally

Anyone for tea and jammy dodgers?

Do we know how many men who claim to be trans who make no effort to live as women have applied for and received STEM scholarships? We need to get a handle on how much of a problem this is in reality.

There may be none yet. But as the idea that anyone can claim to be a woman, becomes more widespread this will soon change.

Just the jammy dodgers please