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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?

840 replies

HermioneWeasley · 20/09/2016 19:55

So, scholarship to support women in STEM - a massive issue for all societies that we're not harnessing th talents of half our populations in this area.

But if you "identify as a woman in a way that's meaningful to you" you can apply.

What the ever loving fuck?

Another example of the damage being done to actual women, by saying that "woman" is a feeling in a man's head.

To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?
To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?
OP posts:
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12
BombadierFritz · 20/09/2016 23:53

exactly my point though 'it is widely known...' 'some police forces...'
no
it is one police force, a lot of noise, media etc but thats it.

BombadierFritz · 20/09/2016 23:56

yes, it is a minor derail, sorry, but every time it is repeated as if true, people think we have more rights than we do.

PinkyOfPie · 21/09/2016 00:25

I'm not scrolling back to just quote myself, I'm sure you can wipe your own bum and find the post yourself.

I have scrolled and can't find a single post that explains your point of "every trans person has it worse than any woman". Just lots of sneery "dear me can't you read" type crap which people often put as a diversion for their terrible arguments. On that note, Kudos to the attempt to get me to clutch my lady pearls at the use of the phrase "wipe your bum" though.

I'll ask again (but strongly suspect you'll avoid the question) - looking at my list of what women in this world go through, do you stand by your belief that EVERY transwoman, including Davinia Ayrton and Danielle Muscato, have it worse than any woman?

Oh BTW I forgot to throw in a few other things like domestic violence (1 in 4 in UK) and my stat re 1 in 10 rapes and sexual assaults is UK based however some parts of the world it is 1 in 2 women. But they should count themselves lucky they aren't trans, no?

Mrsmorton · 21/09/2016 00:30

Amazed by the misogyny. Also not seen any transphobia, just science.

PinkyOfPie · 21/09/2016 00:32

Very good point BAnjo. Why is Alex trying to widen the badnwith of something he has no experience of? If any sex's bandwidth needs widening, it's men! Women can wear trousers, have short hair, wear 'blokey' clothes etc (thinking of the intro to that Madonna song) and go about their day just fine. Men to go out in a skirt, pearls and make up? There's ridicule all round. Feminine men are the butt of so many jokes to this day, if he wants to do society a favour he'd work on changing that.

I suspect he doesn't want to do society a favour though, that he's just a narcissistic misogynostic attention seeking bully who gets his kicks from winding up women and uses shock tactics to keep himself relevant

MidniteScribbler · 21/09/2016 00:36

Mumsnet is a horribly transphobic place. I am grateful that irl that I have never come across these sorts of attitudes but equally sad that there people somewhere out there who are so intolerant.

Saying that a woman's scholarship should only be available to women is not transphobic.

The problem with the sort of 'anyone who identifies as a woman in a way that is meaningful' is where this shit needs to stop. What will happen is that the scholarship will be awarded to a woman, then Johnny, who wants to be called Sally, is going to sue the committee because he was obviously discriminated against because he's transgender. Not just because he sucked at math, but it's obviously about the fact he likes to wear nail polish on Sundays. Then committees end up being forced to select transgender applicants over the more qualified women to avoid being sued.

theopposite · 21/09/2016 00:38

Thank God there's somewhere in the world where people are willing to call out this bullshit.

What worriesme is that having to tick that box to apply would put me off as female born. Why should I have to disclose whether I identify as a woman in a way that is meaningful to me? What's that got to do with my eligibility for us scholarship? It's how others have identified us through our lives that is relevant to whether we have been held back due to gender discrimination.

PinkyOfPie · 21/09/2016 00:38

Can those saying this thread and/or MN is transphobic please do us all a favour - actually explain why you think this is, rather than just 1 post of virtue signalling before flouncing off. It's very frustrating

PinkyOfPie · 21/09/2016 00:39

Why should I have to disclose whether I identify as a woman in a way that is meaningful to me? What's that got to do with my eligibility for us scholarship? It's how others have identified us through our lives that is relevant to whether we have been held back due to gender discrimination.

minatiae · 21/09/2016 00:54

It's not transphobic to have a problem with this.

I have a problem rocking a box that says I identify as a woman in a meaningful way. I don't identify as a woman in a meaningful way. I'm just a woman.

minatiae · 21/09/2016 00:54

Ticking not rocking

FullTimeYummy · 21/09/2016 07:00

PinkieofPie

It says a lot about MN when the comment "all trans > all women" is taken seriously enough for somebody to spend time trying to disprove it.

OBVIOUSLY not all trans women are more disadvantaged than all women. Obviously.

To suggest that because a group is on average disadvantaged, all individuals in that group need help above all individuals in a less disadvantaged group, is fundamentally flawed.

Yet that is the premise behind women-only scholarships. Your (extreme) examples of how "trans women" could seemingly undeservingly snatch the women's scholarship from deserving cases applies equally to women who haven't suffered socialisation issues to any great extent, were going to go into STEM anyway, but might as well get a free ride.

As said, I did explain my initial comment way back up there //\

Smile
CoteDAzur · 21/09/2016 07:26

It's not a misery competition, though.

Transwomen might have very hard lives, which isn't surprising when you have a condition where your brain says something other than reality - as in schizophrenia, anorexia, and BIID.

The point is that there is a difference between is and is not but wants to think so. these scholarships are for girls and women (females). Transwomen are males and therefore do not qualify.

I can think I'm black "in a meaningful way to me" but I won't be able to apply for a scholarship for black students. I can think I'm disabled "in a meaningful way" but will never get formal recognition & a disabled parking badge, let alone a scholarship for disabled people. If I were anorexic and felt fat "in a meaningful way to me", I wouldn't be able to benefit from weight-loss programs on the NHS.

What is so very special about males who "feel" they should be women that we are all supposed to go along with whatever is in their heads? To the point that we should be totally fine with them winning prizes, scholarships, sporting competitions meant for females, no less Angry

FullTimeYummy · 21/09/2016 07:44

All decent points Cote

What I'm saying is, the uproar this has caused points to the fundamental problem with assigning extra help based on genitalia. This person is disadvantaged because they have a vagina, this person is not disadvantaged because they don't have a vagina. That is fundamentally flawed, but it's an easy distinction to make.

Or in this case, this person might be disadvantaged, but in a different way, but isn't really a large enough group for their own scholarship, so we'll throw them in with the vagina lot. Arguably not fair should a woman miss out on a scholarship, but the system was anything but fair (for individual women and men) in the first place.

Sugarlightly · 21/09/2016 07:48

YABU. The scholarships are offered because we know women face discrimination in STEM fields, as well as trans women

OvariesBeforeBrovaries · 21/09/2016 07:50

I wear jeans and sometimes have short hair, so I identify as a man in a way that is meaningful to me, so can I have equal pay and freedom from fear of rape please?

Not sure it'd work the other way around, would it? Yet again it's only women who get shit on.

FRETGNIKCUF · 21/09/2016 07:51

fullTimeYummy.

I don't think you're really qualified, judging by your posts, to accurately talk about oppression Olympics.

We do know, with clever facts like stats, that there is a terrible shortage of women in STEM. We do know that scholarships, which lead to pioneers in STEM, help certain groups to be better represented. We do know that this scholarship was particular to the addressing of the shortage of women in STEM. We do know that broadening that to anyone who wears nail polish is shit for women and somewhat reduces it's focus.

FRETGNIKCUF · 21/09/2016 07:51

Do we know that transwomen are discriminated in STEM?

WaitrosePigeon · 21/09/2016 07:53

Saying that a woman's scholarship should only be available to women is not transphobic

The end.

ToastDemon · 21/09/2016 07:54

No we don't and I don't know why people keep saying that.
We do know for sure that women are under represented though, and it's fairly obvious it's due to female socialisation putting them off. Which is why it's so inappropriate to offer this to someone with male socialisation.

myownprivateidaho · 21/09/2016 07:54

The Athena Swan movement is predicated on the idea that women need extra help in STEM because of gender-based social conditioning/discrimination NOT because there is any biological reason that women find science harder. So it makes sense that gender and not biological sex should be the criterion for eligibility. If we believed that women have special girl brains that mean they can't do science good and so deserve extra help, there might be a case for withholding scholarships like this from transwomen. Since we don't think that, there isn't.

FullTimeYummy · 21/09/2016 07:55

I'm not qualified to judge the oppression Olympics.

However I am qualified to judge logic, and there is a dearth of it in some posts on the thread.

I think we've reached this topics natural conclusion now, with each party unwilling to move and happy to sit there banging their respective drums.

ErrolTheDragon · 21/09/2016 07:59

FTY - no-one has produced any evidence that MTT people are disadvantaged in entering STEM. Whereas there is plenty that people born and socialised as women are (as a class) disadvantaged in this respect. I think it probable (won't glibly assert as fact)that FTT people suffer this disadvantage along with women, but they aren't included. Thats where theres inappropriate trans-exclusion happening.

sentia · 21/09/2016 08:00

So it makes sense that gender and not biological sex should be the criterion for eligibility.

No it doesnt make sense. Socialisation and sex-based discrimination are caused by how other people see you, not how you see yourself. No one can see inside someone else's head and, for example, know that a little boy feels feminine. They will just see a little boy and give him the male privilege that society deems appropriate.

JudyCoolibar · 21/09/2016 08:00

The suggestion by HermioneWeasley that Caitlyn Jenner, Davina Ayrton and Claire Darbyshire are representative of all trans people is as offensive as the suggestion that Myra Hindley and Rosemary West are representative of all women.