To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?

[HermioneWeasley]

So, scholarship to support women in STEM - a massive issue for all societies that we're not harnessing th talents of half our populations in this area.

But if you "identify as a woman in a way that's meaningful to you" you can apply.

What the ever loving fuck?

Another example of the damage being done to actual women, by saying that "woman" is a feeling in a man's head.

I think MNHQ need to tackle the openly revolting misogyny on MN.

Quite a few women have shared their own experiences of how hard it actually is to be a woman studying/working in a STEM field. Do you feel this has given you a new insight?

Definitely interesting reading Talking. Not everything I have read tallies with what I have experienced in twenty years in the industry but it is always useful to get other people's views and thoughts. Probably deserves its own thread as the discussion is running in tandom with the trans bun fight.

I genuinely think most men and many women think that women are equal in our society - despite pornography, prostitution, rape, rape culture, domestic abuse, wage inequality, women's work as unpaid carers, casual sexism, sexual harassment, underrepresentation, inequality of opportunity, mansplaining, etc etc etc.

Wow, the GFs are out in force tonight. With not a coherent argument between them, how incredibly surprising.

PinkieofPie and your "proof" of why trans are undeserving. I've countered this point already, and it really shouldn't need explaining again. Logic and reason obviously aren't strong points for you.

I'm guessing you don't work in STEM?

Do you want to start that thread, Pan? Maybe not tonight though!

I know that his is the third Danielle picture but I'm posting it again for the posters saying "surely someone living as a man wouldn't be able to rock up and take the scholarship"...

This is Danielle Muscato, a transwoman. This is Danielle's post-transition picture. Danielle has had no surgery or hormone treatments and makes no effort to present 'as a woman'. Danielle is a genuine transwoman, because they "feel like a woman".

To be "trans" you no longer have to go through any sort of transition, it can all be down to a "feeling", like with Danielle.

If Danielle went for the scholarship they would tick the second box. If the assessors took one look age Danielle and questioned Danielle's gender, or asked them if they "lived as a man", that would be transphobic and they'd land themselves in very hot water. It's also transphobic to ask someone what "feeling" like a certain gender feels like. It basically means whatever they want. Biology is out the window, means nothing - despite the fact that biology is the root cause of the oppression of women in the STEM field - not gender, not "feelings" (no one asked a man going into STEM if they "felt like a woman" and based their entry on their answer) but the fact that women are women because of their biology.

However, biology means naff all, we can all claim what we want to be with no reason behind it at all.

If a person can't truly see the glaring problem with this, and how it's detrimental to women (by women I mean biological) then I really wouldn't know what else to say to them.

Pan - You haven't read that graph properly.

"between the ages of 22 and 29 women earn 1.1% more than men of the same age, and between 30 and 39 women earn 0.2% more than men "

No. Those figures don't show how much more one sex earns, but the pay difference as % of men's average hourly wage.

A clearer and perhaps easier to understand graph can be found on page 25 of your ONS report (see pic). As you can see, men earn more than women in every age group.

I've read the first page. How far have we got?

Yanbu hermione and any self-identifying transwoman who applies for this is beneath contempt. I can only hope they've done it to stay on the right side of any discrimination rules and have absolutely no intention of giving it to a man.

"Read the above ONS report, and perhaps withdraw your accusation that I 'lied'"

I don't think you have lied. Just that you didn't understand the graph you were pointing at, and also clearly didn't read beyond the page where you found it.

PinkieofPie and your "proof" of why trans are undeserving. I've countered this point already, and it really shouldn't need explaining again

Actually, my point was counteracting yours that EVERY trans person has had it worse than the "poor little women". And you haven't explained what you mean in this thread at all. Looking at my list of what many women in this world go through, do you still agree every trans person has it worse?

And When did I say trans were undeserving of anything? If you mean my comment re they shouldn't be eligible for a women's scholarship, then no they do not deserve it any more than a white person who "identifies as black" (Rachel Dolezal for example) deserves a scholarship for black students. That doesn't mean trans people don't deserve anything.

I'm not scrolling back to just quote myself, I'm sure you can wipe your own bum and find the post yourself.

as long as they paint their nails and like wearing skirts then definitely ok (Born Female here who rarely does either - does that make me able to apply for a Male scholarship??).

I'm starting to wonder if I can get in the local Golf club cos I think I'm a bit Male where golfs concerned. Also theres a pretty good local Football Team and I am a bit sporty - what do you think? My partner could 'feel a bit female and I'm sure he'd win most of the 10K road races round here.

Cote

The paragraph above the graph on page 12

Figure 9 shows gender pay differences by age group. The gap is relatively small up to, and including, the 30-39 age group (with the exception of the 16-17 age group). In fact, the gap is negative for the 22-29 and 30-39 age groups, meaning that women earn on average more than men.

That's just a disgusting comment. But typical.

Shall I dig out some mra abuse stats for our next meander away from gender identity vs sex?

Cote, surely £/hour is the more relevant measure here?

But yes you are right, it's probably for a separate thread

Can I just say some police forces are now treating misogyny as a hate crime. Hth.

Reading with interest.

Winchester, yes, I thought that was widely known by those with an interest in these matters. Nottinghamshire Police is a good example, a bit of a trail blazer if you will, in calling misogyny a hate crime.

Fulltime, you didn't "counter" anything. You offered your uninformed opinion. And why you think anyone would accept that as the ultimate arbiter of truth, I'm really not sure.

Oh excuse me if that's well known. I didn't realise. Great discussion here.

yes they are collating the info as if it were a hate crime (one police force I think only?) but it is still not a hate crime. I am not saying it shouldnt be one, but we are fobbed off with a kind of 'pretend' crime investigation. no point kidding ourselves otherwise.

So sorry Winchester, I genuinely didn't mean to sound that in a snarky way towards you. I agree with you and you are right to bring it up in response to someone else.

There have been arrests bombardier. We had a thread on it. Anyway this is a distraction. Liney gosh don't worry it's irritating when people haven't 'read in'.

Trying (possibly failing to quote this from above) - what I don't get in this article about Alex is why is she "widening the bandwidth of what it is to be a women"? Why isn't she widening the bandwidth of what it is to be a man (her born gender if that's the term?) why is it that a feminine man has to be a woman? Why does a masculine woman have to be a man? It feels like we've regressed 30 years and anyone into pinkly sparkly shit, make up and nail varnish must be a woman.

I dunno, I guess I'm still not over Caitlyn Jenner claiming the most difficult thing about being a woman is what clothes to wear...

"^how to tell the difference between alex, genuine transwoman expanding the bandwidth of womanhood by not taking hormones or surgery and keeping a full beard, and a man in a dress for the purposes of an interview?
www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h?utm_term^