To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?

[HermioneWeasley]

So, scholarship to support women in STEM - a massive issue for all societies that we're not harnessing th talents of half our populations in this area.

But if you "identify as a woman in a way that's meaningful to you" you can apply.

What the ever loving fuck?

Another example of the damage being done to actual women, by saying that "woman" is a feeling in a man's head.

There may be a biological reason for why in some cases people are trans. This would be a good argument to use with people who think trans people are morally inferior for challenging gender norms for their biological sex, and should be able to be discriminated against for doing that. I'm not particularly interested in that aspect though, because I think transgender individuals should not be discriminated against whether they're born that way or choose to be that way. It doesn't matter to me how someone chooses to dress, or act, or modify their body as a consenting adult who understands the risks. I don't think there's anything immoral about any of that. They should be treated with dignity and respect just like everyone else. I just don't think we ought to treat everyone who says they identify as the opposite sex as if they were a member of that sex in all situations. If we can't even distinguish an individual person's brain as being male or female, I don't see how we can justify the assertion that someone has a 'female brain' in a male body, and in fact if we're talking about people who are talented enough in STEM subjects to be applying for a scholarship, I'd have thought that they would be likely to have a brain rich in traits traditionally ascribed to the masculine gender in any case, whatever their gender identity?

dybil - That is not what MN is saying.

MN is saying that there is no "man brain" and "woman brain". That man is an adult human male, and male is the sex that can make sperm. That woman is an adult human female, and female is the sex that can make eggs.

Transgender people might very well have an organic anomaly/imbalance/whatever that causes their brains' wrong assessment/perception of their body's reality. That is not surprising, since people with other such conditions (anorexia, BIID, schizophrenia) also have differences in their brains.

Do you understand the difference? One is about whether men and women have significantly different brains, all of the time - they don't. The other is about whether a condition has a biological basis - it very well could, like many others do.

Those of you who want to cry "Transphobia!" because I called it a "condition" might want to check out WHO's Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems 10th Revision (ICD-10) for 2016.

Gender identity disorders
F64.0 - Transsexualism
A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex.

And also, not every MTT has dysphoria. You're not keeping up with current trans positions if you think they do. A valuable number say it is cisnormative and transphobic to say that an MTT must hate their penis, that they should be able to enjoy it because their womanhood is a matter of personal identity whether or not they enjoy having a penis. I think you should look more closely at current trans positions if you don't know this.

Pan, this is actually what the ONS says:

In fact, full-time women are paid on average slightly more than men between the ages of 22 and 29.

From 40 upwards, the gap is much wider. This is likely to be connected to women taking time out of the labour market to have children. [my bolds]

So women are not, as you state, out-earning men between the ages of 30 and 39. And even before then, not by very much. Unlike the really wide pay gap post 40.

Plus this refers to full time work and women are far more likely to work part time than men (41% of women; only 11% of men). The pay gap overall is still pretty wide, at 19.2%.

But hey, apparently the battle for equality has been won, nothing more to do here.

FloraFox
And also, not every MTT has dysphoria. You're not keeping up with current trans positions if you think they do. A valuable number say it is cisnormative and transphobic to say that an MTT must hate their penis, that they should be able to enjoy it because their womanhood is a matter of personal identity whether or not they enjoy having a penis. I think you should look more closely at current trans positions if you don't know this.

For 30 years I've raised money for Rape Crisis and Womens Aid, and fought for the feminist movement, and this is a slap in the fucking face.

NotAnother the fact that mathematics and mental rotation are considered to be "male" is part of the issue.

I completely agree with you, apologies if I was unclear, I was partly trying to communicate that although there are skills traditionally considered to be 'masculine', that actually these skills are widely distributed between both sexes and that it is indeed quite wrong to think in terms of a 'male' or 'female' brain in anything other than strictly biological, not psychological, terms.

I just had a look at the ONS data and it doesn't seem to say that pan - I read it as men earning very slightly more (very slightly admittedly). And as you say, after that women's pay falls off a cliff. Because we're raising your kids for you while your career goes from strength to strength.

And now, look! You can apply for a lovely scholarship if you put on some lippy and say you feel like a woman

Ah I was coming on to say that even if transgenderism has a biological basis it doesn't mean that men have female brains (whatever the fuck that is) but that transgenderism has a biological basis and nothing more.

It simply isn't possible for a man to have a woman's brain unless it's in a jar on a shelf.

It's actually really easy to identify a male brain. You just zoom in really, really far, and eventually you'll find a tiny little Y chromosome.

Piece of piss.

Also, Pan, you said upthread that you believe there are strong efforts to interest girls in STEM subjects and asked so what is stopping them.

Quite a few women have shared their own experiences of how hard it actually is to be a woman studying/working in a STEM field. Do you feel this has given you a new insight?

I wonder why men feel the need to come on MN and lie about statistics.

When archaeologists and palaeontologists find ancient or prehistoric skeletons they don't say "well it appears to be female, but we can't ask it what it identifies as so who can possibly say?"

"This Neanderthal male skeleton has long hair, we'd better amend all of the paperwork to 'she' now..."

Labour are going to ban online abuse, apparently.

"It ... lists discrimination on the basis of gender, race, religion, age, sexual orientation, gender identity or disability."

Everything but sex, then. So misogyny will be just fucking fine, even though it's a hate crime.

Baffling, isn't it Liney. The misogyny on MN is indeed vile.

Beyond

Would need nail varnish for conclusive evidence

And you cant prove that without fingers...

Surely with both 'gender' and 'gender identity', it should be gendual orientation?

misogyny isnt a hate crime

Genuine trans cases will have endured more difficulties than any poor little woman

FullTime, meet Danielle Muscato. Danielle is a transwoman, this is Danielle's post-transition picture. Danielle has had no hormones, surgery or physical changes of any sort yet is a genuine transwoman, because Danielle "says so".

Also google Davinia Ayerton, a rapist transwoman who raped a child while Davinia was still David, and tried to get to go to a women's prison while Davinia was still bepenised. Davinia is genuine trans.

These poor little mites have DEFINITELY gone through much more hardship than any 'poor little women' with their women problems. You know, like rape or sexual assault (1 in 10), street harassment, sexual harassment in the workplace, lower pay than men for doing th same job, being unable to move up in the workplace in jobs they deserve, objectification, severe cultural damage thanks to the porn industry, FGM, honour killings, being a 12yo child bride to a 45 year old man. Nah those problems pale in comparison

How fucking dare you come on here and flout your revolting misogyny with a half attempt at a straw man argument, know your audience you're not on tumblr now!

Talking

Not sure where you got your data from but the link below is to the actual report.

In short, Stats show that between the ages of 22 and 29 women earn 1.1% more than men of the same age, and between 30 and 39 women earn 0.2% more than men in the same age group (note PER HOUR).

ONS figures(Fig 9, page 12):
www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_385428.pdf

*i did originally state from the age of 21, apologies, it should be from the age of 22

I wonder why men feel the need to come on MN and lie about statistics

Read the above ONS report, and perhaps withdraw your accusation that I 'lied'

Absolutely disgusting misogyny on here.

It's for women and those who identify as women

I find your sneery attitude at other posters astounding when you post shit like this.

FullTime read this slowly- if you have a penis and XY chromosomes, but "identify as a woman" YOU ARE STILL A MAN, therefore should NOT be eligible for a woman's scholarship.

Is this that hard to understand?

The thing is, people really start to make the bigger money in their 40s. And by people I mean, for the most part, men.