To think that scholarships for women shouldn't be open to men?

[HermioneWeasley]

So, scholarship to support women in STEM - a massive issue for all societies that we're not harnessing th talents of half our populations in this area.

But if you "identify as a woman in a way that's meaningful to you" you can apply.

What the ever loving fuck?

Another example of the damage being done to actual women, by saying that "woman" is a feeling in a man's head.

Cock n bollocks criteria, cote.

NotAnotherHarlot

And YES to girls in single sex being more likely to go into STEM. I do occasionally wonder how they will get on when out of single sex, hopefully they will be resilient enough by then to not put up with misogyny.

I wasn't resilient enough - I was in a single sex, I did Biology Chemistry & Maths A level went off to do engineering and fell flat on my face one of 3 girls out 180 in the year. Did typically female jobs (admin, catering, then childcare) got my f=degree in systems analysis when I was 40 & have done nothing with it as I'm still a bit intimidated

80schild - if you'd actually listened to the rest of that programme, you'd have realised that it said that while women earn marginally more than men in their 20s (around £1k/year iirc), by the time they hit 30, men are earning nearly £10k more.

Some level playing field.

And lol at the handmaiden gushing over the mansplainer. And as for that 'you're all howwid twansfobic nasty mean girls!'? Grow up and make some decent arguments.

I've got it! Trans women's brains are actually uteruses. So y'know...female.

Or maybe....maybe.... it's bullshit. And actually people just have personalities based on our genes and our environment.

I had the misfortune to be on a training course where the possibility of splitting leave post baby was brought up.

3 men from the same level of management in one company said that it was not possible and unmanageable in a department like theirs.

There was a thunderous silence when I pointed out that if 3 female managers gave birth in a short time it would be managed. So how exactly was it impossible for the same time off for men to be managable unless they were implying that women are replaceable and men are not.

"doesn't seem to debunk, in any way, there being a biological basis for being transgender?"

I would not be surprised at all if one was found. There is a biological basis for schizophrenia, body integrity identity disorder, and anorexia, all of which are also conditions where the brain's perception does not match the body's physical reality.

So?

NotAnotherHarlot - other posters have given a link to the full article, so you can read the full thing, but here is a section:

"In total, the group identified 29 brain regions that generally seem to be different sizes in self-identified males and females. These include the hippocampus, which is involved in memory, and the inferior frontal gyrus, which is thought to play a role in risk aversion.

When the group looked at each individual brain scan, however, they found that very few people had all of the brain features they might be expected to have, based on their sex. Across the sample, between 0 and 8 per cent of people had “all-male” or “all-female” brains, depending on the definition. “Most people are in the middle,” says Joel"

I basically read the study as saying "whilst there are general differences between the brains of males and females, there are not simply two types of brain. Some people have brains which are very male, some very female, but most are somewhere in between."

So it would seem someone with a vagina could have a brain with more 'male' traits than 'female'.

"sad that there people somewhere out there who are so intolerant."

What does intolerance have to do with objecting to the possibility of a scholarship to support females in STEM being taken up by a male who says "I should qualify because I call myself a woman in a meaningful way"?

Katymac

It is possible. Really is. Hard at times but possible. And all that raised as female time teaches you a lot of skills that are incredibly useful in systems analysis.

Your alignment of your brain with qualities denoted 'male' or 'female' don't necessarily have anything to do with your 'gender identity' though. My father was a psychology teacher. He put me through all manner of these tests as he was getting his degrees. It turns out that my brain is very strongly 'masculine' , good at mathematics, mental rotation tasks etc., which is probably why I did best in the hard sciences in school and am working in STEM now. It's still a female brain, though, because I am female. They make a huge song and dance every time someone like Baron Cohen announces that they find that the average woman out of 100 women is some negligible percentage better at 'empathising' and the average man in their study is some correspondingly small percentage better at 'systematising', whereas really the most striking finding is that contrary to common perception, the difference between men and women's brains is incredibly small and there is a huge overlap in the characteristics and talents of the two sexes, making pronouncements like "men are better at x" meaningless at anything other than a population level.

if you'd actually listened to the rest of that programme, you'd have realised that it said that while women earn marginally more than men in their 20s (around £1k/year iirc), by the time they hit 30, men are earning nearly £10k more.

Well according to the office of national statistics women actually out earn men by a small margin between the ages of 21 to 39. After that men substantially out earn women but this is largely down to women taking more time out of the work place. Please don't flame me, this is in the ONS report.

CoteDAzur - so my point is that whatever you think about whether trans-women should be eligible for the scholarship, of there is a biological cause (which scientists seem to think is very likely) it is unfair for people to compare being transgender to identifying as disabled to claim benefits, as some posters have suggested.

dybil
Read Delusions of Gender. It's a fantastic book. Girls are socialised from birth to be more risk averse. People even handle babies differently depending on whether they think they are male or female. Different toys are offered, different language used, different behaviours encouraged or discouraged. It's hardly surprising that adult brains reflect the years of conditioning.

Brains also change based on interests and learning. You can tell a taxi driver on a brain scan as they are over developed in some areas. Taxi driving is not innate.

Sure, VeraTheVestigialVirgin, but my general point is that the new scientist link posted does not in any way discredit any of the studies in the link I posted which seem to show certain biological trends or markers as being associated with transgender people.

Dybil is also apparently not familiar with the trans-abled community.

And I wasn't talking about benefits, I was talking about a scheme that is offered to students to level the playing field. Almost like a full scholarship is.

It just seems that the scientific community is saying one thing (that there is probably a biological cause for people being transgender) and mumsnet says otherwise, but I can't see much in the way of scientific papers that support mumsnet's skepticism?

Dybil.
Once more...

Correlation =/= causation
And
Brain plasticity.

How can a man have anything but his own brain?

Well, head transplants are in the news today...

Oo, speaking of which - If we stick a woman's head on a mans body, is the body that of a man or a woman?

NAH - women's risk aversion depends also on whether they're ovulating, I doubt that was controlled for....

Vera - the fact that mathematics and mental rotation are considered to be "male" is part of the issue. I have a similar skill set. Maybe if I hadn't had construction toys, a father who loved numbers and encouraged me and who had me with my head in engines from tiny - I wouldn't have. How would I have developed my brain if I had had only toys and experiences directed at girls?

We are looking at it backwards. Looking at adults and saying that means men are good at this, and women are good at that. Not children are taught this and that leads to these results.

If behaviours, skills, and preferences were not classed as belonging to a gender - would anyone be transgender?

Currently women have a much broader set of socially acceptable options for appearance than men, dressing in what was male attire has been acceptable for a long time now. Hard fought by women. Accused of wanting to be men because they wanted to wear trousers. Men currently can't wear skirts, dresses, make up without it being assumed they want to be women. Maybe men should fight to be able to wear what is currently considered female attire and still be treated as men. I'd get behind that.

The scientific community is not saying one thing. There is no consensus on the cause of gender dysphoria. Even if there is a biological cause for it (as there is with e.g. schizophrenia), that doesn't mean an MTT is actually female. It is equally likely there would be a biological cause for being transabled or having any other body dysphoria but that doesn't mean that person should be treated as disabled.

If there is actually a biological basis, there could be an objective test for "genuine" transgenderism (still wouldn't make them women). Are transactivists saying the medical community should hurry up and develop easy testing so they can establish they are transgender? No, they are pushing for self-identification so any Tom, Dick or Harry can claim to be transgender. This application simply says the person has to identify as a woman in a way that is meaningful to them which is totally meaningless and an invitation for anyone to apply.

And to all the people who say no-one would abuse this - why don't you pop your credit card details on your next post or hand them over to the next trans person you see?

beyond

Its whatever they identify as

Obvs

That was a joke

Nobody "capital letter" at me