To think a 10 year old girl shouldn't be encouraged to see herself as "nonbinary"

[MrsJamin]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37383914

How is this story so lauded by the right-on BBC? It's so very irresponsible of the parents to persuade a girl that she doesn't need to be a girl. Girls should be told that they are girls, and that doesn't prevent them from liking or doing anything that people say boys should only do. How does she even know what hormone blockers are? She could mess up her health forever by taking hormones in her adolescence. :(

(and yes, another trans thread - I don't care, this is SCARY SHIT right here when girls don't want to be girls)

Totally feel it, terrifiedandregretful. I've had to unfilled my favourite blog because she has a trans kid and supports trans toddlers. She claims to be a renegade but she's actually a handmaiden.

"No person starts the journey to change gender without having been very thoroughly assessed, both mentally and physically."

But this simply isn't true - you might be talking about when there is medical intervention (hormones, surgery) but changing your appearance and name then demanding to be accepted as a woman is something that could potentially be done in a couple of hours, which is why feminists reject the idea of "self identification" of gender.

Here was I feeling smug because the only trace of this fashion that we have seen in Mexico City is a campaign the mayor ran in 2013 against discrimination against transgenders. It was very strange and out of the blue, considering that the most discriminated sector of society are the indigenous people and most people have hardly heard of transgenders.

Anyway, but otherwise nothing. Mexico City is changing its status to that of a state, so today the news is that this same mayor's draft constitution names transgenders as a group that shall not discriminated against. I wonder what the wording will be? As this is not a subject that has been discussed, most decent people will just see it as being kind to a suffering group.

When people write stuff like: " I have no problem with a trans person (of either gender) using the facilities of the gender they identify with"
I really don't understand what point they are trying to make.
is it
I don't have a problem with this and I am the ruler of the world so you should all defer to me
or is it
I realise many many women have huge issues with this but I don't care about anyone other than myself and so your rights don't matter - only mine count
or is it
I believe no person should be forced to use a toilet if it means sharing with people that make them uncomfortable. And by person I mean man, Obvs. And clearly that doesn't apply to women non-men.

What one single individual is prepared to consent to isn't the blueprint for what everyone else should be forced to. (Note: forced consent is not consent)

What does it matter whether a particular individual deigns to give up their right to privacy? You don't get to give up other people's rights just because you choose not to exercise yours.

I share many of the concerns of those on this thread. I felt so sad after listening to Leo because she sounds like such a sparky, bright, articulate child who could stand up for herself and fight her corner as a 'girl' in a 'boy's' world, being a feminist when she's older (straight, lesbian or bi) but instead of being an advocate for her sex she is being heavily persuaded to jump ship. Are there going to be any lesbians or feminists in the future or are they all going to be counselled to become transgender. I am genuinely fearful.

I thought she was incredibly child-like (because she is a child) when she talked about maybe having a beard in the future, in very much the way she might say she would like having a tattoo or her tongue pierced - it was all very muddy.

I think it's an insane idea to think that people might feel more comfortable with the narrative of their child being 'born in the wrong body' rather than accepting that they may be gay.

And good luck Unicorn with your daughter - she's obviously not in a happy place at the moment and it sounds like you are doing your best to support her - hope it works out OK for you. I don't think any of us are condemning any parent that is trying to wrestle with this.

No person starts the journey to change gender without having been very thoroughly assessed, both mentally and physically.

This is a myth. Many organisations currently use self-identification as sufficient for a man to be treated as a woman. Maria Miller is looking at making that the law, as it is in Ireland.

There isn't even enough assessment for people to have genital surgery, and most trans people never have this surgery. There are many regretters who say how little assessment they had. There is also very little public awareness of how surgery can lead to major complications that have left people in wheelchairs or with ongoing medical problems.

It's a 10 year old writing and it's a short piece for the BBC.

The 10 year old Leo didn't "write" it, the quotes are transcribed from interviews in the radio program about this family, broadcast on Radio 4 this week.

The program is here

No person starts the journey to change gender without having been very thoroughly assessed, both mentally and physically.

Not true. Not everyone goes through the NHS. Many buy hormones from the internet and start with no counselling at all.

Also, AFAIK children are not asked to serious;y consider the idea that maybe the problem is with society's definitions of gender, not them.

I said this on another thread that got deleted.

I wasn't born in the wrong body. I was born in the wrong decade and the wrong family. I saw being a girl as hateful drudgery and being a boy as exciting and free. I craved wearing my brothers' bomber jackets and jeans, and I hated the way men and boys looked at me when I was made to wear dresses and those stupid bloody white socks.

I rejected that particular femininity. But I'm still female.

There are so many rejectable femininities and masculinities. I hope our children do reject them to their hearts' content.

But there's there's no reason to medicalise their pride.

No person starts the journey to change gender without having been very thoroughly assessed, both mentally and physically.

If you are referring to the extensive counselling and such it is claimed is recieved, people who have medically transitioned tend to disagree that any/much counselling was given...rather they were encouraged to transition without much other stuff spoken about such as gender being a social construct and it being ok to wear a dress if you are a man.

Hopefully someone has the link to hand, but if it has not been posted by when I get up tomorrow I will find it. Large study of trans peoples views on the transition process.

I'd ask her why she wanted to be a boy, and tell her she can do anything boys do. In my view, writing your name with pee in the snow is not a worthwhile accomplishment. I would let her wear boy's clothes, have a boy's haircut, and even call her a different name except on paperwork and at school. It's better to treat this as a stage. I was married to a very unhappy transman, and he had several unhappy, extremely sexist transmale friends. Gender transition is not a benign procededing.

Some lesbians and gay people know they are different when they are very young. Ten is old enough for crushes and such. Many people are bisexual to varying degrees. We need to show children that love, respect,and kindness are the important things.

I'm so pleased to discover that gender treatment is apparently so available. Personally it has taken me a visit to the GP (who had no idea what I was talking about) then a return visit to a different GP to fill in more information on a reference form then a call to my nearest gender clinic asking them why they needed to do a gynae exam to them telling me their waiting list is three years for an initial appointment to get to where I am now. Which is a gender clinic further away (fortunately I'm an adult with a car) and their waiting list is one year. So next April I could, possibly, have my first appointment where I can start the process of persuading them that I really do need surgery. I need to persuade two psychiatrists that it is essential.

This is a long process and you need to stick with it. It's flipping hard as an adult. So please. Please tell me where I should go to get this apparently quick and easy treatment.

And please stop claiming that "everyone is non-binary" If your body doesn't physically repulse you on a daily basis, don't tell me your gender doesn't matter. It's not about being a kid who likes to play with dolls or trucks. It's not about being female and not wearing makeup. It's deeper than that. It's about wanting to chop bits of your body off. If you don't experience that level of body dysphoria on a daily basis please don't tell me I'm making an issue out of nothing.

And I don't know how we should deal with prepubescent kids who identify as the opposite gender to their sex. I don't know if we should give them puberty blocking hormones. I don't claim any of this knowledge. All I know is that I'm getting mightily pissed off with people claiming it's a phase or a trend or a fashion. Tell the disproportionate numbers of trans kids who commit suicide that it's a fashion.
My nephew is less than two years old and already there are family jokes about him getting married to Princess Charlotte or how when he had a hair elastic in his hair, "Poor boy, putting his hair up like that!"
He might want to marry Prince George; he might like his hair up.
We know that children are not sexual beings but yet we still make these comments.

" If your body doesn't physically repulse you on a daily basis, don't tell me your gender doesn't matter"

Most women in our culture are repulsed by their own bodies on a daily basis. They are groomed to hate themselves.

Anorexics hate their bodies. We don't offer them liposuction.

"There is a reason gender-reassignment therapy doesn't normally take place until well after puberty". I know a child who was placed on puberty blockers at 11, because she was 'a boy'.

"It's about wanting to chop bits of your body off. If you don't experience that level of body dysphoria on a daily basis please don't tell me I'm making an issue out of nothing."

What is your opinion of the growing number males who simply identify as a women, take hormones (or not), and leave their male bodies intact?

Or people who genuinely feel that they want to remove a (perfectly functioning) leg or arm? Sure, they have feelings that are valid (in that those feelings exist), but should those feelings be indulged?

It frustrates me when people identify as a particular gender then say that people of one gender can do anything that the members of the other gender can do therefore there is no point as identifying as non-binary or trans. Surely you've noticed that the difference between men and women is far more social than biological? I don't understand how this can escape people.

if your body doesn't physically repulse you on a daily basis, don't tell me your gender doesn't matter

I'm 2 stone overweight with monster boobs and acne after having a baby. My body does physically repulse me.

Does that mean I'm a man?

I get a bit tetchy when a man bleats on about being physically repulsed by your own body, in a culture where that is the norm for women. That is how we are supposed to feel about our bodies.

I feel a bit of a head-tilt coming on when that's transplained to me.

user a long wait is not the same as extensive counselling, particularly when you seem to view the counselling as just an obstacle where you have to persuade the psychiatrists you need surgery rather than an opportunity to look for non-surgical options ie addressing your dysphoria through accepting your body.

if your body doesn't physically repulse you on a daily basis, don't tell me your gender doesn't matter

But that's what women are made to feel. We're too fat, too thin, too hairy, not preened enough, not enough make up, 'bad hair days' etc etc are all what women are made to feel.

user
can you tell me in your own words what it feels like to be a woman?

"please stop claiming that "everyone is non-binary" If your body doesn't physically repulse you on a daily basis, don't tell me your gender doesn't matter."

Sex == Gender

Yes, gender doesn't matter. You don't have to conform to the gender roles and expectations. You can be a feminine man.

Being repulsed your body isn't about gender. You want it to be the opposite sex.

"It's not about being a kid who likes to play with dolls or trucks. It's not about being female and not wearing makeup."

But all that is gender

That is what's being talked about in the OP - the 10-year-old girl sometimes wants to dress up as a girl & play girl games, sometimes wants to dress up like a boy and play boy games.

In that sense, yes, everyone is non-binary (gender, not sex).

It's deeper than that. It's about wanting to chop bits of your body off. If you don't experience that level of body dysphoria on a daily basis please don't tell me I'm making an issue out of nothing.

It is possible to accept that body dysphoria is outside the control of the sufferer, and in some cases life threatening, and not agree that it is possible to change sex or that gender is more than a social construct.

Clearly many people who feel that they were born in the wrong body are suffering real distress and haven't just adopted the latest fad.

However, the idea that sex is a matter of identification and that gender is some kind of objective reality does real harm, particularly to women. On thread after thread nobody has been able to give any kind of logical argument to explain why it is a good thing for a child like this 10 year old to decide to identify as 'non-binary' rather than just an individual member of the human race.

"I'm getting mightily pissed off with people claiming it's a phase or a trend or a fashion. Tell the disproportionate numbers of trans kids who commit suicide that it's a fashion."

There is definitely the element of fashion in the vast numbers of teens currently "identifying" as a whole number of things like non-binary queer etc. Certainly no mum would have asked "Oh what shall you boy name be?" in reply to "I don't feel happy as a girl" several years ago.

"My nephew is less than two years old and already there are family jokes about him getting married to Princess Charlotte or how when he had a hair elastic in his hair, "Poor boy, putting his hair up like that!" "

I would sincerely recommend that you stop conflating sex, gender, and sexual orientation before your psychiatric appointments if you want to have a chance of convincing the doctors that you need a sex change operation.