To think a 10 year old girl shouldn't be encouraged to see herself as "nonbinary"

[MrsJamin]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37383914

How is this story so lauded by the right-on BBC? It's so very irresponsible of the parents to persuade a girl that she doesn't need to be a girl. Girls should be told that they are girls, and that doesn't prevent them from liking or doing anything that people say boys should only do. How does she even know what hormone blockers are? She could mess up her health forever by taking hormones in her adolescence. :(

(and yes, another trans thread - I don't care, this is SCARY SHIT right here when girls don't want to be girls)

When Germaine Greer said she didn't think trans women were women at (admittedly some of her language was inflammatory but still) she was vilified for saying what most on this thread believe

Mumsnet is one of the very few places where TERF is the only acceptable form of feminism. The anti-trans feeling on MN appalls me and will undoubtedly drive me away from the site.

I'm as feminist as they come, but believe in the right of transwomen to be accepted as women. I loathe the TERF sentiments expressed as gospel on MN. BUt say anything that differs from this accepted stance and you'll be shot down in flames.

If this is the same child I heard interviewed on R4 on Friday, a brief interview with the mother was all you needed to know to understand she had fed those ideas.

When asked about her father's (the child's grandfather's) attitude, the mother responded that he was not up with the zeitgeist. Just the language of that was enough to imply that she considered herself to be right up there with said zeitgeist and had groomed the child to become something that she herself wanted.

Pingu what is your take on the article being referred to on this thread?

Girls can like pirates and dinosaurs without being boys
Boys can like princesses and fairies without being girls

The whole thing is regressive and homophobic.

This

It needs saying again and again. Unfortunately.

I was horrified when the mum said that when Leo had a choice between a pirates and princesses party, she chose pirates, and that was an indication that she was more of a "boy". But what's wrong with girls liking pirates? My DD had a pirate ship for years that she loved.

Whaaaa?

Going by this, I have actually been a boy for almost 55 years. I always preferred Nancy to Susan in Swallows and Amazons. Gosh, better get to the gender clinic. THe whole thing is ridiculous if it's come to this.

And - more seriously - it has awful effects on those transsexuals for whom gender dysphoria is a real & painful thing. It makes it harder for them to get the care & therapy ( of whatever sort - reassignment, talking, medication) that they need. Because who knew that a serious, painful condition such as gender dysphoria would become the latest "I am more right-on than you" fashion?

I wanted to be a boy. I could see that boys got to wear clothes appropriate for walking, running, jumping, while girls got to wear clothes they had to keep clean (and keep your legs together you're flashing your knickers ).

At school the boys carried their books in sturdy sports bags while the girls had canvas tote bags that snapped under the weight. Boys wore coats that kept them dry, while girls wore smart coats, with no hood. Boys shoes were designed to fit their feet and allow them to run. Girls, well...

I never got on with girls (I'm on the spectrum), and still don't really. I've always dressed for comfort, not style. I don't wear make-up or high heels. I was horrified when my periods started that this was reality for 40 years (so glad I didn't know I'd still be having them at 53!). So glad this non-binary crap wasn't around when I was young.

DD1 decided she wanted to be a boy. Never ever played with dolls, wasn't quiet and girly. Refused to wear a dress and insisted on short hair. Now she is 30 she is quite happy to be a woman.

JenniferYellowHat1980 this is the same 10 year old. The radio 4 production team are being very quick on twitter to defend the parents' choices. I think they have hypersexualised their child, saying they always thought she was attracted to boys. She's a child. Just a child making sense of what she likes and doesn't like, who she is just before or as hormones are kicking in.

I was confused by the "attracted to" as well. Surely as a (I presume) prepubescent 10 year old you are not sexually attracted to anyone.

My six year old DD has told me she loves and wants to marry her best (female) friend. Surely rhis doesn't mean she is either a lesbian or trans? (She has short hair and trousers too, better nip down the gender clinic)

YANBU, the article is ridiculous and the adult-fed lines in it, supposedly uttered by a 10 year old, made me cringe.

Males are males, females are females, children are children, adults are adults. Nobody needs further sex/gender/body labelling.

I used to be very pro trans acceptance and have now gone very much the other way and becoming quite TERF. But the one thing I would say in support of the trans agenda is that I think there's too much dismissing of it in this thread by saying that it's all about what toys you like, what colours you like and what clothes you like. I think that's unfair. Many trans individuals feel a deep rooted horror of their born sex/body and believe that, regardless of what they do in life, they cannot ever be comfortable or feel right without changing 'gender'.

However, I think that makes gender dysphoria a mental illness akin to body dysmorphia, eating disorders etc, not proof that someone has been 'born into the wrong body'. It should be treated psychologically, not physically. And, if any hormonal differences are found in trans individuals then, as a pp said, why don't we correct that balance instead of enhancing it.

I think adults should be able to act and live as they wish, as long as they aren't hurting anyone. But it doesn't mean I believe men are women and vice versa and I definitely don't believe it should be posed as a valid option to impressionable children.

To me, encouraging a physically healthy 10 year old to consider whether they might be happier being the opposite sex is pretty much the same as encouraging a physically healthy 10 year old to consider whether they might be happier being a very different weight. We don't follow up a (healthy) child's concerned 'I feel fat' with support to lose unnecessary weight and become too thin. So why do we follow up a child's concerned 'I feel like a boy' with steps to become one?

'I'm as feminist as they come, but believe in the right of transwomen to be accepted as women. '

That's just self-contradictory. To believe in the second you have to believe in ladybranes and ladyfeelz. I don't people who believe that are 'as feminist as they come'.

A couple of other posters have also flagged it but I too wondered why, if trans was a hormonal/chemical imbalance then why wouldn't you just treat the imbalance and realign body/brain/endocrine system? Oh but hang on, that would mean the patient wouldn't need life long medical intervention and you couldn't bleed individuals/the system dry. Aha, got it.

The term non-binary gives me the rage. You can't have a system i.e. Gender, based on binary 0 and 1 and then have anybody outside of 0 and 1. You can't have a "mostly 0" or "a bit 1". Or zero-yoneish, you know, because they is spechul. It's just a none sense. We're either binary or we are not (my vote is not) in which case there are as many gender identities as there are people on the planet and I'll be fucked up the wrong'un before I accept a world where we need to identify our special snowflakeness in every encounter just in case somebody isn't absolutely clear on our identity and inadvertently refer to us in a way that doesn't reflect our true authentic self, cos you know, that's actual violence.

Bit of a rant there. I need to step away from this topic for a bit as I keep getting this overwhelming feeling of living in a topsy turvy world when I read to much about it.

There is a great video on YouTube that was recently posted from a conference last month, one of the speakers talks directly about transing children and is very intersesting. I can't link on phone but I think it's called The "Transgendering" of children.

I do think that people like these parents are latching on to the trans concept with little thought for the impact on their daughter nor on those who are transgender. Rejecting socially imposed gender stereotypes as a child is to be expected and very different from someone feeling like they can't live in their own skin. Perhaps if society was less gendered it would a positive start.

Is this the one? Stephanie Davies Arai mentions the Transgender Trend site and there's a post on there about Leo.

www.transgendertrend.com/the-bbc-presents-im-a-non-binary-ten-year-old

This is also not the first trans Leo paraded on the BBC. Very poor response from the BBC over that one so I doubt they'll listen to any criticism of this one.

It's like Munchhausen's Syndrome. Not interesting enough? Don't worry, abuse your child in the new improved socially acceptable style!

As a real Tom Boy I had no issues with puberty. I think one thing that helped was my boobs never grew! I've never needed a bra and I have always been slim without girly curves. I do think that made it easier for me.

My favourite outfit when I was 13 or 14 was a pin striped navy blue suit, I had very short hair and people generally struggled to identify me as male or female, well older people did other teenagers didn't seem to struggle and by the time I was 17 I was married and pregnant.

I liked being pregnant except for the boobs, I was always so glad when they disappeared. I can't imagine living my whole life with that particular characteristic, if I slept on my back I thought I was going to suffocate as the weight stopped me breathing.

I never wanted to be a boy, I liked boys toys and was generally to be found with a cowboy hat and a pair of guns. I wasn't interested in dolls although I did have a teddy I loved. I never learned to sew and anything I was forced to make at school went into a bin on the way home. I certainly wouldn't have worn any of it even if I liked girly things.

I don't know what people mean about feeling like a girl, I feel like me and I've always felt like me.

Unicorn I hope everything goes well with your daughter, it must be so difficult to know what to do for the best. It is so easy for people outside the situation to say what to do but when your child is in pain it isn't so easy. I have a friend who hated her bust and she was so happy when she had breast reduction, she is a lesbian but very definitely happy with being a lesbian woman but never liked her breasts, unfortunately she got more than her fair share which made it much more difficult for her.

Pingu I agree. I showed support for trans women being allowed to use the women's toilets at work on another thread here at the weekend and was called a misogynist. Left the thread in the end.
Unicorn, thanks for being so honest. I hope things get better for you both.

The child was well rehearsed, that much was obvious. It was disturbing to listen to. I also felt the mother had issues as well. I do however quite like the idea of non binary gender. Children should be allowed to express themselves, without resorting to physical intervention.

The answer, I believe, is to stop the enforcement of gender binary.

Pingu, what is a woman?

why does 'becoming your authentic self' require so much redefinition and artifice?

Saying that, there is no such thing as boy, girl, brain. It's a ridiculous notion. It's not acceptable anymore to say that there is a difference in brain sizes according to race.

I think, if future generations ever get there, they will look back on this and shake their heads in amazement that such notions ever existed.

YANBU OP.

"believe in the right of transwomen to be accepted as women"

But transwomen don't have a "right" to be accepted as women. They have exactly the same rights as everyone else - right to life, equality before law, right to education, etc.

Nobody has the "right to be accepted as" anything at all, especially stuff that they are actually physically not.

If you believe the contrary, please show the relevant law which states women must accept transwomen as women and that this is a right that transwomen have.

"TERF sentiments expressed as gospel on MN. BUt say anything that differs from this accepted stance and you'll be shot down in flames"

Don't want to be shot down in flames? Have better arguments

I want to hide in mumsnet land! The rest of the world has gone mad. I love the Janet Lansbury parenting site but she has just posted an article about a boy who wore dresses who was of course a girl (5 years old) and his parents were so wonderfully understanding... I posted my dismay and any number of lovely, well meaning people piled in to help me resolve my 'confusion'. I just don't get it. people are saying things like 'she wasn't just a boy who wanted to wear dresses, she was transgender' as if that resolves it all. When the only evidence she presented that she was a girl was that she wore dresses. (And understandably therefore may have thought she was a girl because girls wear dresses). I just don't get how people can't see the circularity of the argument! I just feel so sad for the children involved. And breathe....

"I do however quite like the idea of non binary gender."

I do, too, and in fact believe that the vast majority of the world's population are non-binary - i.e. one may like pink but hate skirts, love playing with dolls but hate makeup, enjoy car races but love fashion etc. Who among us loves only girlie-gender things?

The problem is that when transactivists talk about transgender and non-binary gender etc, what they mean is not gender but sex - i.e. male and female. They say a transgender person is not a person with masculine appearance who is feminine "inside" but a male who is female "inside". Which is nonsense.

Right, just getting the helmet & fireproof clothing on before I post this. Will take me a mo.

Right - I have no problem with a trans person (of either gender) using the facilities of the gender they identify with. I also disagree that a person with gender dysmorphia is simply "mentally ill" and should not be discouraged. No person starts the journey to change gender without having been very thoroughly assessed, both mentally and physically. And the fact that they are now able to do so without (much!) bullying is great. I also agree with the PP that the reason that we didn't hear so much about "trans" suicides is for the same reason that other LGTB suicides weren't disclosed - family were ashamed / thought it would posthumously ruin the deceased's reputation.

All the above said, doesn't change my original stance on this 10-year old. There is a reason gender-reassignment therapy doesn't normally take place until well after puberty - because the person needs time to settle into who they are, both sexually and physically. There are plenty of lesbians out there who are happily female just as there are plenty of gay men - neither would want to change sex, they just happen to be attracted to the same sex. This 10-yr old is being sexualised far, far too early simply on the choice of toys / games and needs to be given a normal childhood!