To think a 10 year old girl shouldn't be encouraged to see herself as "nonbinary"

[MrsJamin]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37383914

How is this story so lauded by the right-on BBC? It's so very irresponsible of the parents to persuade a girl that she doesn't need to be a girl. Girls should be told that they are girls, and that doesn't prevent them from liking or doing anything that people say boys should only do. How does she even know what hormone blockers are? She could mess up her health forever by taking hormones in her adolescence. :(

(and yes, another trans thread - I don't care, this is SCARY SHIT right here when girls don't want to be girls)

I'm more concerned about the publicity mum has allowed her child to be subjected to.

I did once work with a ten year old like this. I was on supply and the child had a name that able to be used by both sexes. I embarassedly asked the teacher what sex the child was. They laughed about it later in the staff room and said if you find out tell us. They weren't meaning to be cruel. So it can show up early. What about children who have been scanned and have found they have opposite sexual organs or both.
I just feel sad that the child is exposed to all the publicity. I was listening to a programme on BBC 4 on a long journey and mum and child were talking about it.

It's deeper than that. It's about wanting to chop bits of your body off. If you don't experience that level of body dysphoria on a daily basis please don't tell me I'm making an issue out of nothing.

And in this one single instance of body dysphoria, we don't try to help people not Feel that way, as we would with an anorexic or someone who thought they were ugly... We collude with their delusions which are born out of a society which wrongly believes gender to be real and innate, and we fill them full of hormones and chop the bits off them ... It's mad and it's wrong.

She's probably just mightily fucked off by the girls = dolls and boys = boisterous message that is forced down everyone's fucking throat these days.

If people could stop with the pinking or blueing of personality, there would be a lot less of this shit.

What about children who have been scanned and have found they have opposite sexual organs or both

They have a physical condition which means that either they are intersex or they are male or female but their sexual organs haven't developed correctly. It isn't the same as believing that you were born in the wrong body.

I have a 10 year old girl, she's smart and has an older teen sibling who uses more sophisticated language than she does but there is NO WAY that she would be able to talk about herself within a framework of sexual politics or trans ideology the way this child supposedly does. You can hear the adults in the background, they might as well be holding up flashcards.

I thought modern parenting was about not labelling your child. Like how if you tell a child they are naughty they will act naughty in order to meet your expectation of them (and get your attention). If you tell a child they are not the sex they actually are (by changing pronouns and taking then to a trans medical team and going along with ideas of "born in the wrong body") you are labelling them. You are shutting off avenues of normal and necessary self exploration and self understanding.

Every time this subject comes up loads of MNers talk about how they wanted to be a boy or were a tomboy when they were young. I was like this too - I imagine it is more common than uncommon. And this was before the pinkinfication of everything that we see currently. And before the hideous and dangerous proliferation of porn. No wonder girls are running away from this current porny and rapey version of femininity.

We urgently need a thorough investigation of what is going on here. The number of young people with confused and harmful ideas about sex and gender is massively increasing and the numbers show concerning patterns of behaviour which clearly point to environmental factors (i.e society) playing major roles in those ideas (for example the increasing trend in girl children using transgenderism as an outlet for their anxiety about puberty and the sexualization of females that girls have to deal with).

I hope there is an academic or researcher who has the guts to take it on - perhaps Sheila Jeffreys. She is already completely vilified so doesn't have much to lose on that front.

I know there are lots of MNers who are sick of trans threads and or what they perceive as transphobia but please, please will people take an interest in the transing of children. It is a phenomenon that is massively on the increase and it needs investigation. We are messing with a whole generation of children's heads and bodies and this is being treated as something liberal and groovy. We are encouraging girl children to hate their bodies and their sex with constant messages of sexualisation, pinkification, sex caste low status and stereotyping. Add to that the internet, pornification, identity politics, postmodernist individualism and queer theory, the neoliberal attack on class and class identity and bingo - you have the perfect ground for trans ideology and dogma to proliferate.

Transing is a medico-sociological phenomenon that is deeply political. It needs examined urgently.

Spot on, Beachcomber, we should all be worried about what's happening to this generation. We will all know another parent who talks about their child in this way... What will we say then? To their faces? How will we kindly, empathetically say that children are the sex that they are and anything else is a choice to reflect their individuality and their personality. I don't know how to be prepared for those conversations TBH.

Hear hear Beachcomber.

Great post, Beachcomber.

It's really interesting and strange how the discussions about this have changed over the years. It used to be that trans people would talk about feeling they'd been born in the "wrong" body, that they were a man trapped inside a female body and vice versa. Although I find that problematic, I know a lot of people could sympathise with that explanation, or at least the feeling behind it.

What's weird now is that you get people calling themselves "non binary", which resists any kind of explanation. As many people have already said, we're all non-binary when it comes to gender because no-one entirely matches a social stereotype of masculinity or femininity.

Exactly so, Beachcomber.
It can be difficult for academics and researchers to ask these questions and explore the multiple connections without the inevitable accusations of transphobia. The research would have to take place in an environment where 'no platforming' and 'safe spaces' and 'trigger warnings' also operate.

I posted this link before www.bath.ac.uk/equalities/policiesandpractices/Statementontransequality.pdf
Point 5 is really outrageous but shows the kind of environment in which a researcher might work.

You can hear the adults in the background, they might as well be holding up flashcards. I know. It was very sinister. 10 year olds shouldn't be doing 'research' about transgender issues. They should be enjoying life as children. Shame on those parents.

With regards as to the why I couldn't help immediately jumping to conclusions about the correlation between these two articles:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37223063

"Among 10 to 15-year-old girls, the charity's report says 14% are unhappy with their lives as a whole, and 34% with their appearance.
Researchers were told of girls feeling ugly or worthless.
The figures for England, Wales and Scotland for 2013-14 represent a sharp rise in unhappiness on five years before.
By contrast the study found that boys' sense of happiness remained stable."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36010664

"The data also shows that nearly twice as many biological girls than boys were referred to London's Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust last yea"

As many people have already said, we're all non-binary when it comes to gender because no-one entirely matches a social stereotype of masculinity or femininity

And those social stereotypes change over history. Look back a hundred, two hundred, four hundred years ago ...

Absolutely ItsAllGoingToBeFine.

We live in a society that tells girls that their bodies, in their natural state, are ugly, smelly and disgusting. That they must be thin, sexy, hairless, fuckable and feminine. We tell girls that they are worth less than boys, that they are the sex class. We immerse them in rape culture and the fetishisation of female body parts and of females as body parts. We objectify them, other them and force them into a box labelled subordinate.

No wonder so many girls don't want to be girls.

And then along comes the Trans juggernaut. And what does society do? Embrace it and tell children their bodies are wrong and need fixing via drugs, the trappings of femininity or masculinity and surgery. The kids are wrong not our stupid sexist sex obsessed society.

WTAF.

These kids are being used for a very adult and political agenda. As you say MrsJamin how is one to behave around a child who is being transed? Even a TERFy crone like me would probably sway to the gaslighting and call a girl child "he" in order to not shatter the illusion the poor kid is living in, even though I think it is wrong and harmful to prop up that illusion in any way.

Just a quick note from me (as a mum with a transgender DD - wanting to be a DS). I totally get what everyone is saying - we should not be pushing children forward into making decisions that they may regret in the future. Many tomboy girls and feminine boys grow up to become perfect in their own right - it doesn't matter what toys you want to play with or what clothes you want to wear. However, my DD is not one of these girls who doesn't like her body, wants to be a boy because of what they wear/do/how they are thought of... this is much much deeper. A true transgender child goes through hell - its not about typical stereotyping or not liking themselves, it is a deep hatred for the body that they have been born into - NOTHING seems to fit, NOTHING helps. When the true cases are helped, with therapy or surgery, then it is what makes this personal truly happy. I am sure there are many cases out there where children have been manipulated into a situation that they cannot get out of, I am trying my hardest to ensure that my child is not one of these.

What an extremely interesting thread, lots of food for thought.

You sound very sensible Unicorn, unlike the mother on the BBC programme, I might add.

So much of this seems to stem from the confusion between sex (binary, to a close approximation) and 'gender' which is a whole slew of different cultural norms and stereotypes (and pseudoscience). It seems to me that someone like unicorn's DC might be what we once would have called 'transsexual' - wanting to change (insofar as it is possible) sex. Which is a necessarily long and painful process to address a real problem (whether its roots be psychological or physical). Having people 'identifying' by 'gender' is really a quite different thing, it's potentially messing up kids who are medically and psychologically entirely normal gender-nonconformists, eroding the rights of women and it seems like this conflation really isn't very helpful to kids like unicorn's.

Unicorn, I'm so sorry that you and your lovely daughter are going through this. . It may be worth remembering (although I'm sure the experts will have told you this) that of all young people who experience genuine gender confusion, 80% will move through puberty and emerge the other side and not be trans. They are usually either lesbian or gay. However things work out for you, I wish you well.

I'd be interested (this is only a theory) to find out (very broadly) how many women commonly regarded as TERFS are over 35 and how many who support the gender narrative are under 35? I only ask because I am in my late 40's and grew up in a world with very few gendered toys. Most of the toys that my brother and I were given in the 70's were non-gendered and we shared them. Clothes were the same. Jeans and Tshirts or jumpers. Pretty much for everyone unless you were going to a party.

The massive push in gender norms has happened over the last 30 year as a response to consumer driven capitalism. It really is that simple. Why make one toy if you can make two in different colours and sell two? The sharp divide between girls and boys clothes, possessions and toys has increased hugely in the last 10 years alone, when a lot of young parents have had children. I have to wonder how many people under around 35 just accept that this is how things are because they have genuinely never experienced shopping, marketing, adverts, clothes etc any other way?

Just a thought.

Unicorn is sounds extremely distressing. I'm going to say something that I hope you will take in the spirit it is meant, that is with respect and kindness.

I often see gender dysphoria compared to anorexia and that comparison strikes me as a sound one. When I hear a parent say that they have a transgender child I hear massive societal influence. (I'm not disputing that the child has gender dysphoria.)

A parent of an anorexic child would not say "I have an overweight child" and it really concerns me to hear children with gender dysphoria being described as transgender.

I wish you and your child all the best and a happy long term outcome from such a difficult and distressing thing x

Yy Errol, and the effort to blur the lines and add Genderism into the Transsexual 'club' only really serves the

I hope that one day my DD becomes at one with herself (or himself) - I really hope that there is no surgical procedure (we have already turned down medicine to block hormones - neither of us wanted this) and that she/he leads a happy and fulfilling life. My only aim is to support my DD through an incredibly difficult period which has included anxiety, severe depression and self harm. We'll get there I'm sure.

Thanks for all the supportive comments (I was quite scared to join in the thread as I've seen some very harsh (and often funny) responses on here!)

I think it's difficult. My niece identifies like this. She is young teens. She had a very difficult few years from about 10 or 11 resulting in self harm. She has had therapy and is now happier and more comfortable with herself. I struggle with all the "they" stuff, not from an idea logical point of view but from the grammar and speaking point of view. It's tricky but there was nothing in the article that made me concerned. I think a 10 year old is capable of identifying if they are gay. Certainly my understanding is that children know a bit younger than that and it's a sensible conversation to have.

I think a 10 year old is capable of identifying if they are gay. Certainly my understanding is that children know a bit younger than that and it's a sensible conversation to have.

Why is it a sensible conversation? Or in any way necessary? 'I don't care if you like boys or girls', fine. 'Are you straight or gay?' Just why? No 10-year-old needs to declare a sexuality.

Unicorn, please feel free to ignore this if its inappropriate (or if I've already asked elsewhere!). But has your dc been assessed for Aspergers?

It's commonly missed in girls and can lead to mh crisis in teen years (depression, self harm, anorexia). It's very common for women diagnosed in adulthood to say they had trouble with their 'gender identity' when they were younger, and there is a massive correlation in people who are diagnosed as transgender and those with autism.

I've got a copy of the table that helped with my "lightbulb" moment, I'll add it on here for you to look at, if you want to

Unicorn

So many children suffer from dysphoria and I can't begin to imagine how it's dealt with. I think even the most gender critical person wouldn't brush off the feelings or dismiss them. It's refreshing to hear that you won't be giving your DD hormone blockers and only look to support her until she's more mature to make an informed decision herself about her life. I wish more parents of children with dysphoria took the same cautious approach.

The best of luck to you are your family!

Excellent post from Beachcomber at 08:54:28.

I'd be interested (this is only a theory) to find out (very broadly) how many women commonly regarded as TERFS are over 35 and how many who support the gender narrative are under 35?

Interesting point. I'm mid-40s and would consider myself a TERF. I remember going to primary school, where there was no uniform, in blue trousers and brown trousers as often if not more so than skirts, dresses or anything pink. I had dolls but I also had a toy garage/cars and no one thought it was odd or tried to dissuade me from playing with it because it was a "toy for boys". My favourite toy in the world was a model farm, complete with Britains tractor and all those 'farmy' accessories, neither obviously girlish nor boyish. None of that was because I was particularly a tomboy - I was just a child at a time when being a child was much less gendered than it seems to be nowadays.