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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think a 10 year old girl shouldn't be encouraged to see herself as "nonbinary"

429 replies

MrsJamin · 19/09/2016 11:44

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37383914

How is this story so lauded by the right-on BBC? It's so very irresponsible of the parents to persuade a girl that she doesn't need to be a girl. Girls should be told that they are girls, and that doesn't prevent them from liking or doing anything that people say boys should only do. How does she even know what hormone blockers are? She could mess up her health forever by taking hormones in her adolescence. :(

(and yes, another trans thread - I don't care, this is SCARY SHIT right here when girls don't want to be girls)

OP posts:
Atenco · 21/09/2016 17:35

Wow, a 12 year old on testosterone? That is just shocking

This is absolutely the most horrific aspect of this fashion.

Just read the Guardian article with growing horror and then my dd called me to see about how the Mexican government wants to ban the use of medicinal plants.
I know there can be a small risk from taking medicinal plants inappropriately, but really it seems that the bar for doctors and pharmaceutical companies is extremely low, while the bar for any other type of treatment is getting higher and higher.

Hedgesinthewind · 21/09/2016 17:44

Gender is the state of being male or female (or nonbinary) silly!

I sort of get what you're trying to say Cynthesizer but I think you mean that 'Gender is the state of being masculine or feminine.'

As others have pointed out, there's a distinction between sex and gender and the terms 'male' and 'female' usually refer to biological sex, rather than socially constructed gender. Sex is the condition of being biologically male or female.

We might usefully stick to use the words 'masculine' and 'feminine' to talk about gender - and gender stereotypes. Rather than male or female, which are words better linked to biological sex.

It's such a tricky area of discussion, it helps to have very precise terms to help clarify communication.

ButterfliesRfree · 21/09/2016 17:51

I cannot believe we even have conversations whether non binary is a gender or not.
Gender is based on the biological sex given at birth, therefore it's based on physical attributes either male or female, girl or boy. Yes there are people born with a both physical parts or a mixture : hermaphrodites. And something that each hermaphridite child eventually gets to discover is what they feel most that they associate with.
However if we are born male or female and if it becomes a psychological decision to switch (or its in the brain not the physical or biological status) then the individual needs help with that down the line, ie once a person has gone from child to adult to decide on this. Bringing in drugs to alter the body is damaging. When we are born we are born either male or female. There is no disagreement. Just because someone is male that does not mean they only have to like boy things etc etc, same with the female gender you are not stuck in a girl-only box of preferences. I do not believe non binary exists. I think male or female. Yes hermaphrodites but it's the physical attributes we are talking about.
Any change or indifference in the head is just that, psychological.
When it's psychological a child cannot know for sure what they are until they've reached full maturity. As others have said your child wants to be a dinosaur great, but they will not be a full grown adult living as a dinosaur. It's all in the brain.
Let kids be kids and deal with actual physical changes after maturity if the need and desire is still there. It's similar to our society these days that people get breast implants or vaginal plasty or penis enlargements. We cannot give a penis enlargement to a 10 year old boy or double DD breasts to a 7 year old girl. Once they have matured, sure in this current society, people do whatever they want they get surgery and get implants or change the way their faces look etc but it's all down to how they feel psychologically/in the brain. Let kids just be kids and then as adults go for it. We may not all agree on these physical changes but go for it.

Sameoldiggi · 21/09/2016 17:53

I suspect, Hedges, that if we ever did agree on the precise definition of all the terminology the edifice of the trans activist stance would be exposed for that nonsense it is.

user5318008 · 21/09/2016 17:53

And the kids who're seen as the strongest candidates for cross-sex hormones are the ones who've been identifying as trans from a younger age. Those are the kids who need hormones even less than the average trans kid IMO. They're the ones who've never had a chance to be their actual sex. The ones who've been falsely told since they were tiny children that they can be the opposite sex if they want to be. They have the most to lose.

'Oh, they can just come off blockers' is all well and good but is it that easy for a 10-year-old to stand up in front of their peers and say 'I know you all think I'm a boy/girl but actually, I've just been pretending for six years and now I'm going back to being a girl/boy'? Especially when all of the adults in their life have been supporting their delusion for as long as they can remember.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/09/2016 18:32

I was about to post to say, don't be silly, no-one is giving testosterone to 12 year olds, you're thinking of puberty blockers but then I read the link Sad
That's awful. Really, really awful.
First do no harm, eh?

WombOfOnesOwn · 21/09/2016 18:47

People say "gender is a spectrum just like race." Well, no, because it's much harder to end up with an intersex person than a mixed-race one, but furthermore:

We all know race is a "spectrum." In fact, I'd say very few MNers would challenge a biracial person who identified as either race they had a claim to, regardless of what the races in question were. In the same way, "identify as a woman/identify as a man" makes a great deal of sense when applied to intersex individuals. When you have a claim on being part of two groups that are usually-but-not-always distinct, it's very normal to identify more with one group than the other.

But even though there are biracial people who can identify with any of two (or several) groups, that doesn't give ANYBODY permission to say that they're Afro-Caribbean if their family heritage is 100% Croatian, say, or to claim Inuit is their "identity" if they're of South American extraction.

In the same way, while it's perfectly acceptable, possibly even desirable (in some ways), to have a "gender identity" as an intersex person, this doesn't imply in any way that bog-standard males and females should be able to identify as a group they have no claim to.

If estrogen and testosterone is all it is that makes a woman or a man, surely melanin's all that makes skin color, and anyone who wishes should be allowed to identify as black, whether they actually use melanin supplements to darken themselves, use shoe polish to give themselves blackface, or don't do anything at all and simply apply to black students' scholarship foundations.

Then we can have "racefluid" children who decide every morning whether they want to "act white" or "act black." "But when we tried to take all her white kid toys away from her, she got really upset! Now we realize she's actually white sometimes, so her desire for white kid stuff makes sense."

Do you see how HORRIBLE this is yet?

littleflamingo · 21/09/2016 18:49

If my daughter wants to be a boy I will try to find out WHY she thinks being a boy is more appropriate.
Ive got a very close friend that started to date girls during her teens because she was raped! She never told that to anyone until she was over 30 years old. She just revealed this terrible fact because her daughter was starting to dress and act in a very masculine way. At the end my friend found out that her DD was being sexually harassed by some boys.

WombOfOnesOwn · 21/09/2016 19:00

littleflamingo:

Yup. A friend of mine who picked a boy's name, cut all her hair off, and dressed in boy's clothes as a pre-teen was being molested by her neighbor. In studies, HALF of FTM patients have experienced sexual abuse. And the solution offered? Puberty blockers, or binders -- basically all these ways that say "the way you look, the way you're developing, is what's causing this, we'll stop that and their nasty behavior will stop."

Combined with the amount of social pressure girls are already under, and how often they're told their appearance is to blame for any unwanted attention, and it's not hard to see why they hate their breasts and their femaleness.

Transgenderism in women is, as much as any other cause, a reaction to sexual abuse in childhood. But very few counselors even bother asking. Two women I know who have detransitioned after being on T were never asked a single question during the leadup to hormone administration about whether they had experienced child sexual abuse. Both had been victimized. They are now incredibly angry at doctors who told them that T was the answer they were seeking.

It's victim blaming to tell girls that the solution to being ogled is to bind the breasts. Breast ironing is a practice that's going out of style in Africa because it has many of the same negative effects as binding, and it's also done to girls to prevent men from looking at them. Same as the burqa.

Perhaps we should tell girls who feel their breasts and periods are alien that MANY women feel that way when those things develop, and that a lot of the reason it makes us feel that way isn't the developments themselves, but how people react.

I wonder how many times the OP's daughter was abused, harassed, or assaulted before deciding she'd had enough with being female.

Thefishewife · 21/09/2016 19:21

Sadly I think often this about the parents getting attention and speical treatment by athorites

This is the new m by proxy

littleflamingo · 21/09/2016 19:28

I totally agree with you.

We should act as diligent parents and investigate why our kids are not confident with their body or they are into homosexual relationships. Before repeating the same "homophobic" speech we should care for our children. How many girls are being sexually harassed and nobody knows?

Lorelei76 · 21/09/2016 19:58

I appreciate this might seem a random remark but it is relevant

one thing that strikes me as odd is that the medical profession are willing to consult on this and even for children - but I've always known I'm childfree, it's hard enough for a woman to get sterilised at my age - I imagine as a teen it would have been impossible. Suppose I'd asked for puberty blockers to ensure staying childfree?

Obviously "specialists" will be working on the puberty blockers etc, but it seems extraordinary to me that sterilisation would be denied when things like this are going on. If I could have been sterilised at 16 I think the NHS would have saved a fortune.

I am lucky that I can take hormonal contraception and continue with it now I'm snake because it controls my appalling periods, but of course many women can't take it and many are refused sterilisation into their 40s.

The contradiction there is extraordinary- it's like you know your own mind if you're doing something that's okay with contemporary thinking? But if it doesn't fit with that narrative - the narrative for women seeming to be "how dare you want to have no children or no more children" - then you meet a brick wall.

To the poster whose child is possibly transitioning - I feel for you. I am concerned though, I started puberty horribly young and spent years crying at home and refusing to go out. If this type of concept had been around then, there is a serious risk I would have done something I would have been unhappy about later, or something that might have made me ill etc.

Lorelei76 · 21/09/2016 19:59

Snake = single! Lol!

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 21/09/2016 20:28

I don't think there's any evidence or suggestion that kids become homosexual because of abuse or social pressure, littleflamingo. In fact it's the opposite, in that lesbians in particular often only recognize that they are lesbian as adults. The social pressure is all to be heterosexual.

Transitioning is a different matter. It appears that young women who transition do so not because they want to be men but because being a woman is frightening and/or revolting to them. This is caused by sexual abuse, fear/disgust at their changing bodies: periods, breasts, and the expectations.of a pornified culture. Transition makes them feel safer, at least in the short term. Long term it seems many are now detransitioning, and working to come to terms with being female.

This is the opposite to homosexuality. I don't remember any stories about gay men who suddenly discovered they were straight, not unless religion was involved.

Cynthesizer · 21/09/2016 21:10

Oh, I see the confusion here. People don't usually admit to not knowing the difference between sex and gender...! Blush That's a little embarrassing. Okay.

Biological sex is based on whether you have chromosomes that let you make reproductive gametes - i.e. eggs or sperm. We call animals that get pregnant or lay eggs "female" animals. We call the sperm donors "male" animals. Sex is usually determined by chromosomes. Now, as a biologist I won't confuse you with the various exceptions and details to this, even though there are lots of them :D Just remember that sex = the physical part. Chromosomes, penises, whatever - the ability to get together and reproduce!

Gender is what you "are." It's a piece of your identity. And your identity is not entirely defined by your body. If you are a man and you had your penis, testicles and prostate removed due to cancer, you'd still be a man even if you couldn't function as a member of the male sex and had no male hormones or sexual urges - your gender would still be male. If you are a woman and get a heart transplant from someone of a different sex, it becomes a female heart (gender) because it's your heart, even if it is male tissue that came from a male body (sex). You don't become 5% male because you had a blood transfusion from a male donor, either! Women with PCOS are still female even though they have lots of male hormones in their bodies. And if you had a little son and he lost his genitals in a botched circumcision then you probably wouldn't raise him as a girl, because you would recognise that he still has the ability to be "male" without a penis.

Gender doesn't always align with biological sex, and when it doesn't, that can be very sad and challenging. For example, someone with androgen insensitivity syndrome is "biologically male" (male chromosomes and internal male reproductive organs) but may never know this because their external appearance is female and they often identify as female. So these people live socially as woman, identify as women and frequently only find out about their male sex when they don't have regular periods, or have trouble conceiving. They are still female if their gender is female, though.

People with intersex genitals - who don't have an obvious sex to point to - may identify pretty firmly with a gender. Even if they have no biological sex, they can still be male or female.

Even if there was some kind of mad situation where a woman's head was put on a man's body, her gender would still be female because gender is separate from the body. Likewise, a trans woman is a woman (female gender) even if her physical body might suggest otherwise.

So that's where a lot of confusion and hurt feelings happen. People often think sex and gender are the same thing. They aren't, they're two different words with completely different biological definitions - and it's very easy to look them up if you get confused.

People are so weird, we even give gender to things that don't have genitals. Most European languages gender objects, even though objects don't have sex. In Spanish and French the moon is a girl - but in German the moon is a boy. The moon obviously doesn't have any biological sex (it doesn't have a vagina/testicles) but it has gender depending on what language you speak.

Gender is what we assign, sex is how it reproduces. If you're looking at a kitten's genitals to decide what to name it, you're sexing the kitten. If you compliment someone on their "pretty baby girl," basing the compliment on the baby's pink outfit, you're gendering the baby.

If you don't "believe" there is a difference between sex and gender, that is widely considered transphobic. So if you mix up the two, you will probably be accused of this (or you'll just sound like someone who never took a biology class... or learned another language... or had any curiosity about your body or society.) They are literally different things, and it sounds like you're saying you don't believe there is a difference between planets and stars. Or tomatoes and potatoes. Once you know the difference it isn't complicated, and you have no excuse to still sound ignorant.

And finally, gender role is what you DO with your gender. Sure you're a woman... but so what? What does that mean in your society? Gender roles change with time and place and can sometimes be oppressive. For many previous generations, women were expected to nurture children, care for the home and run domestic stuff, while the men provided all the money, because those were their clear defined roles. This has changed and now everyone is expected to do some formerly gendered stuff like cooking, cleaning and earning money. Back in the old days, typing was feminine (women learned to type so they could become secretaries) but now that everyone uses computers, typing is genderless. Pink used to be a boy color, while blue was feminine because it is associated with the Virgin Mary, but now pink is a girl color and boys won't touch it because "it's for girls."

Healing and medicine used to be a female gender role, but then the rise of modern medicine made it more masculine and women weren't allowed to do it at all - and now it's coming back around to being a feminine profession. Math used to be masculine, but now girls are encouraged to be good at math. Gender roles have expanded a lot, although there are still some things men "can't" do and vice versa. Even now, people have to justify liking/doing certain stuff and feel embarrassed for stepping outside their gender role, like my husband is embarrassed about using my spot zapper and won't buy his own, but he still secretly uses mine. Hopefully some of it will continue to change, I for one would like to see grooming return as a symbol of true masculinity, so that it is once again truly MANLY to really care about your appearance Wink

In some cultures gender roles are very strict and restrictive, for example, in some cultures women are expected to be very submissive and subordinate, and are punished for stepping outside their strict feminine role. In some cultures, like Italy, men can kiss and hug each other as greetings in public. In the UK, this is not considered masculine and most men would find this inappropriate/uncomfortable.

And even though gender roles seem pointless or illogical, they can be very important to people.

If a cancer patient loses her breasts/hair/eyelashes/ovaries/hormones, and her ability to care for people/cook/nurse her children, and if she doesn't look/feel pretty in the mirror, then she might feel really sad even though those are NOT the things that make up her female gender. They were key parts of her feminine identity, but losing her sex characteristics and the way she expresses her femininity doesn't make her genderless/nonbinary/a man. It still can hurt to lose them, but it doesn't mean she has lost her womanhood. Her gender doesn't change, it was always separate from her body and her role.

If a man doesn't want to use shampoo from a girly pink bottle, it's not because it's biologically incompatible with his sex, or because he thinks it will make his penis fall off, it's because his masculine gender role is strict and the pink soap isn't compatible. A man who happily uses the pink shampoo isn't more womanly, it's just that he's got a different definition of his role in masculinity and he feels it can include pink soap. The joke is "Being comfortable with my masculinity" or "being in touch with my inner woman" and men who joke about this feel that their maleness (gender) is ultimately unaffected by using women's stuff (gender role).

So in conclusion, sex, gender and gender roles are different things. And now we have no more excuses for confusion!

user5318008 · 21/09/2016 21:18

And your identity is not entirely defined by your body. If you are a man and you had your penis, testicles and prostate removed due to cancer, you'd still be a man even if you couldn't function as a member of the male sex and had no male hormones or sexual urges - your gender would still be male.

And his sex would be...?

lionheart · 21/09/2016 21:19

To whom, exactly are you addressing your lecture, Cynthesizer?

merrymouse · 21/09/2016 21:23

Cynthesizer I think the confusion is caused because you think of gender as something that has a concrete, objective existence, as opposed to just being a subjective social construct.

However, while biology has a very clear, inescapable effect on people's lives, there is no evidence that gender exists.

user5318008 · 21/09/2016 21:24

And intersex conditions are absolutely nothing to do with gender. It's all biology.

The LGB community needs to team up with intersex organisations because both groups of people are being chucked under the trans train.

JedRambosteen · 21/09/2016 21:25

TL:DR

merrymouse · 21/09/2016 21:27

Even if there was some kind of mad situation where a woman's head was put on a man's body, her gender would still be female because gender is separate from the body

I think some religions believe this because they believe that people have a pre-existence before they are born , as they continue to exist after death.

However, that is not science.

user5318008 · 21/09/2016 21:27

TL: scan read and keep finding more bullshit.

Even if they have no biological sex, they can still be male or female.

Everybody has a biological sex.

But at this point, I think somebody's out to provoke so I'll shut up Grin

merrymouse · 21/09/2016 21:29

Her gender doesn't change, it was always separate from her body and her role.

The main thing is that her sex doesn't change.

Lorelei76 · 21/09/2016 21:29

Cyn "Gender is what you "are." It's a piece of your identity. And your identity is not entirely defined by your body."

Um, gender isn't even a tangible thing. Nor is it a belief. Gender certainly has no part of my identity.

Of course my identity is not entirely defined by my body because my body doesn't tell me that I'm an atheist for example. But it does tell me I am a biological female and I accept the right of anyone to wish to alter their body.

But if they haven't altered it, I do not accept their right to use facilities intended for one particular biological sex when they are not that sex.

ageingrunner · 21/09/2016 21:29

I'll have some of whatever Cynthesizer's on please Smile