To think a 10 year old girl shouldn't be encouraged to see herself as "nonbinary"

[MrsJamin]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37383914

How is this story so lauded by the right-on BBC? It's so very irresponsible of the parents to persuade a girl that she doesn't need to be a girl. Girls should be told that they are girls, and that doesn't prevent them from liking or doing anything that people say boys should only do. How does she even know what hormone blockers are? She could mess up her health forever by taking hormones in her adolescence. :(

(and yes, another trans thread - I don't care, this is SCARY SHIT right here when girls don't want to be girls)

My four year old Ds (not really called Connor) has just announced to me "I'm not a boy, I'm not a girl, I'm Connor!"

There was a report/study/article on this where the writer said that as long as help/ blockers etc was provided to help the one genuine transchild - then it didn't matter if the other 4 kids became collateral damage as the trsnschild's situation was a priority.

I heard of that. As long as the one transkid gets hormones before his puberty makes it harder for him to "pass", it's okay that the 80% get hormones unnecessarily, losing their fertility while at it.

Yes, trying to remember where it came from. Beyer rings a bell.

Littleprincess what do you mean by "kids who genuinely actually are trans" ?

Do you mean a minor who has body dysphoria? A child who hates and or rejects their body?

I think it is wrong for a child to be labelled "trans". So how about those children's right not to be labelled, not to be told that their bodies are wrong? How about their right not to be exposed to trans indoctrination and a misogynistic and homophobic social order named gender?

How about their right not to have their bodies and endocrinology tampered with and experimented on? How about their right to be gay or lesbian or simply not happy to embody sexist stereotypes?

" What about their rights?"

What "rights" are these that you speak of?

Trans people have exactly the same rights as everyone else - right to life, ownership, education, and equality before law. These are rights they have for virtue of being human beings.

You seem to say that they should have additional rights because they are trans. What might those rights be?

I'm 44 and definitely a TERF. Apart from growing up in an era where my brother and I read each other's Beano and Mandy comics and went through joint obsessions like Evel Knievel, Dick Turpin and snooker, I have three kids and see how richly varied their tastes and personalites are, and how ridiculous gender bullshit is. My eldest is a student, a hairy rugby-loving guy with a girlfriend. When he was three he liked me to paint his toenails and had a couple of Barbie dolls. My daughter has long hair, likes pink and is a wild tree-climbing, diving, sprinting, football-loving daredevil. They're just THEMSELVES ffs, it makes me so angry to think of kids being pushed into stupid narrow stereotypes and worse.

I listened to the interview last night and it was hard to listen to.

Leonis very articulate and I don't doubt that many 10 year olds are able to have mature conversations, my dd (11) has always been a great speaker and it's easy tonforgetbshes not an adult sometimes, but the words and terminology Leo came across as them repeating things they'd been told.

I'm not sure how to explain, but there were parts where you could hear Leo stall for a few seconds when asked what she thought or felt about a b or c, and Mum took over and spoke for her. There's also parts where you can hear Mum whispering in the background.

Some of the things Leo said about how she feels were different to how Mum said Leo feels. Like Leo says she feels like she is a boy and a girl, whereas Mum says Leo is definatley not a girl. Leo also says they are not trans, but Mum often speaks about Leo in relation to trans, rather than non binary, saying things like a lot of trans people feel .......

Mum says she knew for a long time that something wasn't quite right and mentioned that Leo wanted a pirate party, is it possible the Leo could have picked up on her Mums stereotyping when small and it's contributed to Leo not feeling right and feeling like she should be in the boys line at school. I know it's more complex than that, but I can see if a child has recieved messages from parents that certain toys and clothes are for boys and that's the type if stuff the like how they could feel confused, esp when puberty is starting too as it reinforces the reality that your a girl if that makes sense?

Mum mentions wanting to look into puberty blockers to put things on pause for Leo in case they want to change their minds, but then asks Leo if they'll be a gay or straight man, she didn't give the option of being a gay or straight woman. If these options are not presented to her as well then would it make it harder for Leo to say she's changed her mind as is ok being female? I also think asking a child who they will be sexually attracted to as an adult is weird, talking about different relationships and how it's ok to love who you want is one thing, but asking a 10 year old if they think they'll be a gay adult is odd. Especially given Leo's confusion as to her gender, why ask them to consider their adult sexuality too?

Listening to the interview in general, mum is very familiar with the terms and seems to have her head wrapped everything, wheras it all seems very new to Leo, it makes me wonder if Mum has been looking into the trans and non binary thing before Leo mentioned her feelings to her, and she does come across as leading Leo rather than Leo exploring for herself, and at 10 years old has there been enough time for them to explore ways of Leo being comfortable in her body as a girl in the same way they have explored Leo living as a boy?

Leo's little brother referred to Leo as she at the end and quickly apologised, it must be confusing for him too. I hope the family finds peace and happiness.

unicorn I can't imagine how diffiult it must be to see your child struggle and be in pain. I hope you and your dd find peace and happiness too

#2

It's just terrible terrible parenting to suggest to your daughter that she can become a gay or straight man. She just can't, however much she might want to. A responsible and compassionate parent would be helping her daughter to accept her female body and encourage her to follow her interests, whatever they are.
I can't help feeling that the mother is creating a massive problem for her poor daughter. I felt fairly similar to Leo at that age and earlier and I'm now hsppy to be a woman. I certainly wouldn't be happy if my mum has set in place a chain of events that led to my sterility!!
It's. Just. Child. Abuse.

Imo Leo's parents should be psychologically evaluated to try to find out why they're so desperate to push this agenda on their child. I don't mean that all parents of trans children should be, but from listening to the interview, it certainly seems to be Leo's mum who's driving things and Leo is obviously likely to be doing what her mum tells her.

The interview made me so angry, this is not a trans child, her mother decided that her daughter was not a girl because she prefered pirates to princesses? Then brainwashed her with political ideology to transform her into a fashion accessory representing her mother's mentality.

Girls can like climbing trees, pirates, guns, cars, rough play, sports just as boys can like dolls, princesses, pink, pretty dresses and many children will like a mix of both, liking what's stereotyped for the opposite gender doesn't make a child a boy/girl in a girl/boy body, liking a mix of both, as this child does, doesn't make them non binary, it makes them pretty typical!!!!!

So now this perfectly normal girl who has been brainwashed to believe herself as some sort of aberration is going to be given hormones to satisfy the mother. This sounds similar to munchausens by proxy?

I don't know why a re teen would be sexualised in this way.
I think on 50 years we will look back on this as abuse.
Adults - fine. But their hormones have kicked in.
But a 10 year old?
I don't know what stereotypes and messages they have been exposed to but it is simply wrong. Unless they have some sort of intersex genetic condition which would change my comments entirely.

Your question is reasonable, your reaction to the story may not be.

Should children be encouraged/pressured to fit a specific gender role? No.

Should children be supported if they don't fit into a specific gender role? Yes. Always.

Is "nonbinary" a gender? Sure.

Do hobbies and interests indicate gender? Not particularly. Hobbies are gender neutral, and even though society associates some of them with specific gender, they don't mean you HAVE to be that gender to do them.

Do preferences for certain aesthetics indicate gender? Not particularly. Gender roles aren't the same as gender.

Should you gender a child based on their aesthetics and interests? No, you should gender a child based on their gender. Their gender may, rarely, surprise you.

Should I pressure my child to be nonbinary? Not if they aren't nonbinary.

Should I support a child who says they feel like a boy sometimes or a girl sometimes? Sure!

Don't children change their minds about gender a lot? Sure! It can be fun to explore gender and gender roles, and play pretend games about gender - cisgender adults do this too. It's totally natural. If two girls want to play House, they have to either play as a female couple or someone has to be the daddy - it doesn't necessarily mean that they are lesbians or trans boys; they're just playing with gender. It's fun and gives them empathy.

So what, I should support a child in 'exploring their gender' when I suspect they're just a dumb kid who may be making it up? Hey, little girls often claim they want to "marry their daddies," but you don't scold them or put them in therapy for it. You just know that they'll work out the difference between family love and romantic love later. Let your kid explore the difference between pretend gender and their own gender, and trust that they'll work out the difference later. If they think there is no difference, hopefully they'll come to you and talk about it.

Does it matter how old the child is if you want to pressure them into a specific gender role? No, it's always inappropriate.

Even if it's nonbinary? Even if it's nonbinary.

Does it matter how old the child is if they announce they don't fit into a specific gender role? No, they deserve support anyway.

Is it effective to force a child into the "correct" gender role? No, this is not effective.

But isn't it better for them? I mean, if you get it wrong, in 20 years they'll probably cut off contact with you and post in internet forums about how abusive you were. And if you get it right, you made it seem like there was something "wrong" about being the other gender, and you'll end up with sons who won't buy tampons for their sick wives, etc. So no, it's not particularly better for them and could be very harmful.

But my girl child likes cars and trucks and trousers and definitely isn't a boy! Sure. That's because gender (who you are) isn't the same thing as the gender role you perform (feminine, masculine, androgynous.) Some straight cisgender women are very happy wearing masculine clothes and doing masculine things and taking a masculine role. They're still women. Some trans women are seriously into makeup and homemaking. They're still women. Don't worry about it.

Should intersex children or children with genetic conditions receive surgery, treatment or hormonal interference to "make" them into a specific sex? Probably not - you have a chance of not getting the sex correctly aligned with the child's gender, and then you might have the more complicated process of raising a trans child. Unless there is a medical reason why the child has to be treated or assigned ASAP, it's probably best to put off anything permanent until you (and the child) have more information.

Should you put a child on puberty blockers if they are questioning their gender? It'll depend on you and your child. Puberty blockers aren't permanent. However, puberty can cause physical changes that are permanent. If it's still best to put off anything permanent until you (and the child) have more information, then this might be the right decision.

Do families interviewed in the media always come across in a thoughtful, nuanced way? No, not without extensive training. If most families were interviewed in the media about their parenting choices, and the resulting piece edited to sound juicy and entertaining, the parents would sound like raving lunatics and the Internet would advise calling the police and having their children taken away.

How seriously should I take this story, then? With one (1) grain of salt.

How seriously should I take my own children? I don't know, they're not my children.

That's because gender (who you are) isn't the same thing as the gender role you perform (feminine, masculine, androgynous.)

So what is gender then?

Puberty blockers aren't permanent. However, puberty can cause physical changes that are permanent.

If a pre-pubescent child goes from puberty blockers to cross-sex hormones, which the vast majority of them do, they're sterile. Also, puberty blockers can make kids desperate for cross-sex hormones because they don't want to be stuck in the body of an 11/12-year-old while everybody around them is maturing. This girl is a good example. Desperate for hormones because her mates are going through puberty and now she's on testosterone at 12. Excellent quote from the prescribing GP: "This child has always been a boy, never worn a dress, always played with boys."

FTT or MTT, it always seems to come back to dresses.

How the fuck is gender any different from personality?

Sure. That's because gender (who you are) isn't the same thing as the gender role you perform (feminine, masculine, androgynous.)
Maybe this is at the root of it all. You believe there is such a thing as "gender (who you are)" as opposed to a gender role you perform.
I do not, as there is no evidence for such a thing and no one can adequately explain what it would look like/feel like, if it existed.
We argue apples and pears.

when DD2 was small, she announced she was a dinosaur. Happily enough, dinosaurs liked to wear the exact same clothes Dd had in her wardrobe, and ate DD2s favourite foods for tea. About 6 months later she told me "don't be silly mummy, i not really a dinosaur, I (pre)'tending". She's a fairly well-adjusted adult these days.

I asked DD3 (age 14) last night what she wanted to be most in the world. She said a pirate, because then she could wear the boots and the billowing shirt and have sword fights. She's about to start rehearsals for her role as a cat with a theatre group, and will do quite a bit of practising at home. Doesn't make her trans-species, any more so than fancying a pirate costume makes her a boy

I've loved watching all my daughters try on different personas to see if they like them, if they "fit", if they're who they want to be. Teenagers (and that seems to start as young as 7 or 8 these days ) have always tried out different things. We used to call it "going through a phase", nowadays it seems it has to be a "thing" or a "condition", and involve lots of media attention.

Wow, a 12 year old on testosterone? That is just shocking.

Gender is the state of being male or female (or nonbinary) silly! Gender roles are what society says you should do and how you should act based on your gender. Thankfully, they've become a lot less restrictive lately!

If I dress as Jack Sparrow for Halloween, it would be such a fun role to play and the pictures would be hilarious. My personality is even a little bit like Jack's (even though he's a man and I'm a woman.) But the costume would not change my gender and I would not be a boy. My gender is female, my costume would be male. The role (Jack Sparrow, a fictional man) would be different from my identity (Cynthia, a real woman).

I'm the breadwinner in my household (taking a 'male' gender role) and I plan a lot of our finances and frequently wear trousers. I am also definitely a girl. How do I know? Because I'm a girl! That's how we know that gender (what you are) is different from gender role (stuff you do).

Even 50 years ago it would be scandalous/upsetting for a woman to be in my job, because gender roles have changed a huge amount. Now it's acceptable for a woman to be a breadwinner and work in STEM. This used to be against social norms - and I would have been accused of being "unwomanly" and undermining my man because I do this! 100 years ago, the gender roles for women would have meant that I probably couldn't work outside the home at all. It just wouldn't be possible for me to have this job! Nobody would give it to me, and nobody would marry me once I had it. The Victorians would be ashamed, upset and uncomfortable that I transgressed the boundaries of my womanly gender role.

Does liking/doing "boy" things make me a boy? Nope! I can't turn into a boy or become a boy just because I have some androgynous and/or masculine personality traits, or because I have masculine interests or chose a masculine career. Wearing my husband's shirt doesn't make me trans, it makes me a woman in a comfy shirt.

Equally, if my husband has some "feminine" traits (he values/enjoys cleaning, planned our wedding like a military campaign, and gets fussy about how the home looks - while I "don't see dirt") then all it means is that he has some "female" gender roles and personality aspects - it doesn't mean he is female. However, even 50 years ago this would be considered really unmanly/suspicious/weird. Men weren't supposed to pay attention to that stuff - if you did, you weren't a man! Today, gender roles have changed and men are allowed to get excited about weddings and cleaning gadgets. They can still be men, and they don't need to question that, but they can have a few feminine traits too :) I think it's great that gender roles are more flexible now.

Also, just in case you possibly don't know, delaying puberty doesn't mean anyone must necessarily go on any kind of hormone therapy. Goodness, that would be a terribly silly decision to rush into!

There isn't really a medical correlation between delayed puberty and becoming sterile and depressed! Otherwise, all those young kids who have naturally delayed puberties would be in a lot more trouble - and there are a lot of those!

Ideally, if families decide to delay puberty, it gives them some time to decide what to do with a child who is questioning their gender. I presume that families who decide to do it have been advised thoroughly by a team of medical professionals, since it needs to be prescribed and follows NHS guidelines. So the medical ethics of delayed puberty are not really something that needs to be decided on by Mumsnet.

I wouldn't worry so much about any of this. Anyway, children try on so many different phases when they're growing up. When I was little I definitely was a boy - and I usually played Daddy or the King when playing house or princesses :) And I was also a dragon! And frequently, a horse...

Gender is the state of being male or female

No, that's sex. Silly!

If a child takes puberty blockers and follows it up with cross-sex hormones, they will be sterile. A child with naturally delayed puberty doesn't take cross-sex hormones and so their sex organs develop in time. If you block puberty, you block that development and then going onto cross-sex hormones stops it from ever happening. If they come off blockers and don't take cross-sex hormones then they'll go through puberty but the current trend is that the vast majority of kids on blockers go on to take cross-sex hormones.

There's also absolutely no research into the side effects of taking puberty blockers for five, six, seven years throughout your early teens or the psychological impact of delaying that process.

If a child takes puberty blockers and follows it up with cross-sex hormones, they will be sterile. A child with naturally delayed puberty doesn't take cross-sex hormones and so their sex organs develop in time. If you block puberty, you block that development and then going onto cross-sex hormones stops it from ever happening. If they come off blockers and don't take cross-sex hormones then they'll go through puberty but the current trend is that the vast majority of kids on blockers go on to take cross-sex hormones.

There's also absolutely no research into the side effects of taking puberty blockers for five, six, seven years throughout your early/mid teens or the psychological impact of delaying that process.

Poor kid, needs help away from her parents. Why mention sexual attraction at 10? Seriously. Parents need to back off and let this kid be a kid before any major decisions are made.

Gender is the state of being male or female (or nonbinary) silly!
Agree with pp, that is not gender that is your sex