First woman to fight on the frontline

[napmeistergeneral]

Transgender woman becomes "first female" in British army to serve on frontline.
Link is to the guardian but covered by other outlets also.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/17/transgender-soldier-is-first-female-to-serve-on-the-front-line

I don't doubt it's an incredibly hard and scary thing to be a trans woman in the army and for that chloe deserves support and praise. But I'm afraid I still feel unconvinced by the "first woman" claim.

AIBU to feel uncomfortable and unconvinced about firsts for women being claimed by trans women?

That hysterectomy point is basically like saying "if you get your leg removed, that means you're not human" (because humans are a bipedal species).

It's beyond fuckwitted.

I agree we seemlingy can't have anything now

Men have so bloody much and the little achievements we do get men want to take those as well sigh

I think it's the reporting of this that's iffy, not the individual concerned, personally.

I can't get angry about how other humans want to describe themselves. I don't feel attacked by it.

Hecantbeserious you make this point:

"So surely it also affects other men badly that women are accepted as men by virtue of self-declaration. (If that is how transgender is being accepted now. It can't only be one way.)"

Thing is we live in male dominated society. In a society in which male violence against girls and women is rife, institutionalized, systematic and often treated as the natural order as is the subordinate status of girls and women.

Women who transition do not affect men as a class or as individuals in the way that men who transition affect women. Not even close. This is not even stevens.

I'm actually not sure what the poster intended it to mean if not that.

I am a human. Humans, unlike butterflies have two arms and two legs. I can pull 2 legs off a butterfly and give it shoes and gloves and it will still be a butterfly who has had its legs pulled off. It will not be a human.

A woman following an accident or illness could have no ovaries and no vagina, and her medical records will always record that she is female, because without that information she cannot be treated correctly. She won't become a man, even if that is what she really wants.

"I can't get angry about how other humans want to describe themselves. I don't feel attacked by it."

That's possibly because you are not a woman living in a refuge who suddenly finds there's a hairy handed trucker in the next room. Or a woman in prison, (the majority of whom are there for financial rather than violent crimes) who suddenly finds that a convicted rapist, complete with penis, is next in the line for the showers. Or a rape victim who rings up a crisis line expecting to speak to another woman and hears a bloke on the end of the line.

I don't really feel threatened by anyone's identity either. But I do recognise the political implications of it.

Thing is we live in male dominated society. In a society in which male violence against girls and women is rife, institutionalized, systematic and often treated as the natural order as is the subordinate status of girls and women

Unless you're using a very wide definition of "violence" I don't recognise the world you describe.

But I do recognise the political implications of it.

Yes to that.

Lucky you, Hecant.

Most women don't recognise it because in order to survive and feel comfortable in patriarchy, you have to invest in a huge dose of denial.

Hecan't: Are yu arguing that transwomen are women?

Hecantbeserious - I am using a precise and feminist definition of violence against girls and women. One that includes porn, prostitution, domestic violence, harmful cultural practices, rape, sexual assault and threat of, the struggle for reproductive rights, gendercide, child abuse and so many god awful things that it pains me to mention.

So if Obama decides that he really is a woman and comes out as Rebecca. Does that mean we have already had the first woman America president?

It is fairly similar to the UN's definition.

www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures

If Jeremy Corbyn decides that he is really Jessica, does that mean we have had the first women Labour Party leader?

The army do not consider her a woman. But they had to bow to the pressure of the lawyers and the media. "Chloe" wanted to come out. Had the Army said, this is not a woman and we shall continue to call him Ben, can you imagine the backlash?

If Gordon Brown puts on a dress and calls himself Nina, does that mean that we have already had the first UK woman prime minister? Cos according to the Jenner rules, we have to regard trans people as having always been the sex they identify with.

Bigbiscuits we're onto our second.

"If Gordon Brown puts on a dress and calls himself Nina, does that mean that we have already had the first UK woman prime minister?"

I think you are forgetting a certain someone :-D

If Jonathan Dimbleby changes his name to Joanna and puts on some lipstick, can the BBC add HER to their statistics about older women presenters?

Oops. I meant of course Labour prime minister!

Cos according to the Jenner rules, we have to regard trans people as having always been the sex they identify with.

You have to be joking.

If Hilary is elected and comes out as Henry, a transman, does that mean we have had our first two gay married presidents (Bill and Henry)?

That Jenner bloke is wrong.

I love the comment that people can request not to be used for media. They get pressurised into it. This might seem unreal but its true. Have a look around a armed forces careers website and look at the ethnic split of the 'case studies' as a case in point. Also, people on here do not seem to get that most people in the military do not want to be nationally recognised! They just want to do their job and feel secure. Being paraded in front of the media erodes that!!

We are being mocked and having the piss taken out of our humanity

This is in our face women hating. It is contempt. It is misogyny of outrageous proportions

Wake up liberals - you are being used too

YES YES YES

Struggling to articulate the extent of my rage, still Spartacus