First woman to fight on the frontline

[napmeistergeneral]

Transgender woman becomes "first female" in British army to serve on frontline.
Link is to the guardian but covered by other outlets also.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/17/transgender-soldier-is-first-female-to-serve-on-the-front-line

I don't doubt it's an incredibly hard and scary thing to be a trans woman in the army and for that chloe deserves support and praise. But I'm afraid I still feel unconvinced by the "first woman" claim.

AIBU to feel uncomfortable and unconvinced about firsts for women being claimed by trans women?

Love actual woman as the only qualifier. Love it.

Well they know what they can do with 'cis women' term.

FFS you are either born a woman or you arent its not bloody complicated. I dont need someone who wasnt born a woman telling me what I am.

I dont need another label thanks, I am a woman end of, dont need someone else to 'catogorise' me nor validate me.

Trans 'women' are trans women not biologicaly women. I dont care what they wear, what job they do, I dont wish them any harm I want them to be allowed to get on with their lives same as the rest of us, to be treated well etc but also to get on with their own lives without the need for all the bells and whistles.

"But haven't you heard, some trans women say they actually ARE cis after they go through the surgery."

FFS. LOL. Rabbit-hole. Etc.

I've decided to identify as a transwoman.

Well why not.

Yes, as pp have said, I'd be interested to hear more from those who feel fine and relaxed about trans women being recognised as "the first woman" in situations similar to these. Is it because you think the struggles / inequality etc. faced by trans women mirror those of women, and are similar enough for the two groups to be placed together rather than distinguished?

I fully support equal rights for all people, regardless of race, religion, sex, gender. But I still don't see why this means I have to accept that a woman who was born without and has experienced none of the barriers which prevented women from being on the front line in the first place can be heralded as the first woman to achieve that. It is, as others have said, a little Emperor's New Clothes to me.

This is what Cameron said about lifting the ban:
"It is vital that our armed forces are world class and reflect the society we live in. Lifting this ban is a major step. It will ensure the armed forces can make the most of all their talent and increase opportunities for women to serve in the full range of roles.”

I agree with this. Being supportive of Chloe and others like her to live in way that she feels is right and that makes her happy is a really positive reflection of a modern, open, forward-thinking society. And that's brilliant. But as I see it, that still doesn't make it appropriate that the person heldup as being at the very front of the vanguard of this "major step" is a trans women rather than a cis woman (again, prefix for clarity).

I posted in AIBU so you can tell me IABU (or ridiculous, or vile, or whatever) but what I'd like to hear is why. And in a bit more detail (a more considered response than) "because they are women / because you're transphobic / just because".

"But haven't you heard, some trans women say they actually ARE cis after they go through the surgery."

I'm delighted to hear this. Quickest way to render the term pointless even in the eyes of the obedient.

I would like to know what's to stop the army from ordering 50% of new male recruits to put on lippy and high heels and declare themselves women, and then turn round and say there's no glass ceiling in the army anymore, so all those actual women who were going to be sent to the front line, don't need to be sent there now and we don't need to have any equal ops anymore as everyone is equal now.

It's such complete bollocks.

Cisoff
Just want to say that your name is fab

This guy is a shit. He should have passed on all this glorification knowing what it does for women. Proof he's a. A guy b. A shit.

I think it's great that the army is now so accepting that people like Chloe are treated with respect and allowed to do their jobs. I have no problem with accepting Chloe as a transwoman or calling her she if that's her preference (and I strongly dislike that several posters have used her appearance as an excuse to not regard her as a woman, as if they would accept her if she looked more 'girly'. I have a male friend who's stature means he is frequently mistaken for female from behind, would that make it OK to call him 'her' against his wishes?).

I do think it is unfair to call her the first woman to achieve her position, as she clearly ONLY got accepted due to male privilege (according to BBC site women not born male will only be allowed from 'later this year').

Is it wise to let mentally unstable individuals into combat?

'several posters have used her appearance as an excuse to not regard her as a woman'

he is not a woman and I wouldn't accept him as a woman if he looked like a woman

I heard this on the radio. In the headlines they just said first woman. And I thought wow well done her. It was much later in the news report that they said Chloe will start hormone treatment that I realised that this is about a transwoman

The papers and bbc were being disingenuous as usual. They were taking the piss out of Chloe as they know full well the reaction.
If they had said Chloe is the first transwoman going into combat few people would have read/noticed/cared. The bbc and guardian are particularly bad in this respect as the reporting language says female.
This argument wont be won by using feminist perspectives. Use scientific facts: female xx, with womb etc, male xy, narrow pelvis, higher muscle mass etc. No one can accuse anyone of being bigoted nor phobic this way.

Nataleeja

really???

Can you clarify how you know they are 'mentally unstable'?

I wouldn't use 'mentally unstable' but surely the mental health issues involve believing you're a women when you aren't.

I mean, a soldier with Bodily Identity Disorder (where they believe they're in the wrong body and the 'right' body would be disabled) definitely has mental health issues. Could spend quite a lot of time trying to make themselves disabled. I can't see the army indulging that.

Well, gender identity disorder is a disorder of some sort, combined with needing therapy/treatment... Oh well just ready for combat

"'several posters have used her appearance as an excuse to not regard her as a woman'"

I don't need an excuse to regard a man with a penis, XY chromosomes, male socialisation and male unearned advantages, as... er... a man.

Do I need to find an excuse to recognise that a cat isn't a dog as well?

Farkin ada.

To be clear:

I find it horrifying that women believe we are answerable to men, for failing to accept their gaslighting version of reality.

This is why men rule the world. (Apart from their exercise of violence of course.) Because women feel obliged to account to men, when we step outside the mental prisons they've erected to keep us in.

Fuck that. Step outside. Breathe the air. See reality. It's great out here.

It's telling that there must've been enough complaints to spur MNHQ to comment but none of the posts have been deleted. So no, we're not being transphobic. We're discussing something of major significance to women.

Despite the complaints there have been very few dissenting posts and those that have appeared do what supporters of the trans agenda always seem to do: make a couple of unsupported assertions and then, as soon as they're asked to explain themselves, disappear again.

I've heard trans supporters claim they can't post because the atmosphere is unfriendly. I'd point out that if they had halfway decent arguments they'd stay and stand their ground. This lack of a coherent argument is why trans activists spend such a lot of effort telling women to STFU Here, in contrast, dissenting views are encouraged but the trans activists appear to have no arguments that withstand analysis.

Yy prawn.

I really wish people who oppose would post. I want to hear a sensible argument for genderism.

Posting "you're all bigoted bigots" and then running away is not helping to win me around.

Basil
I've decided to identify as a transwoman

Then you can sign up for front line combat! Strap on your lady dick, get your gun and head off to Afghanistan.
Go Girl!
P.S. Remember to do your nails first though

I gave up posting anything on these threads that goes against the general consensus because, no matter how calm and reasoned my posts are, the threads inevitably turn into a bunfight with me at the centre being accused of being goady and worse. I have seen a number where people have been actively bullied. It is therefore not surprising that people avoid posting.

What seems to happen inevitably with these threads is that they end up with the same people posting the same points over and over again and agreeing with each other. You do have to wonder what on earth is the point. It does concern me that essentially MN has been cowed into allowing posts about trans people that would rightly be deleted if they were directed against people of different races or disabled people.

So, forgive me if I decline to join in this discussion simply in order to get shouted down again.

"'several posters have used her appearance as an excuse to not regard her as a woman'"

I'll admit that I use the 'born with a penis' thing as my excuse not to regard M2T as men (and frankly, always will), but I do think the Alex Drummond's of the world are spectacularly taking the piss.

And laughing at actual women while they do so.

that should read 'to regard M2T as men' not 'not to regard...etcetc'

Namechange,

I will engage with you calmly if you could point out the transphobic posts, and tell me why you think they are transphobic.

It would help if you could clarify what your definition of transphobic is, and also, what your definition of a woman is.

The reason people post the same arguments over and over and again, is that if you draw them to their logical conclusion, the pro-trans argument makes no sense at all. Well, to me anyway.