First woman to fight on the frontline

[napmeistergeneral]

Transgender woman becomes "first female" in British army to serve on frontline.
Link is to the guardian but covered by other outlets also.
www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/17/transgender-soldier-is-first-female-to-serve-on-the-front-line

I don't doubt it's an incredibly hard and scary thing to be a trans woman in the army and for that chloe deserves support and praise. But I'm afraid I still feel unconvinced by the "first woman" claim.

AIBU to feel uncomfortable and unconvinced about firsts for women being claimed by trans women?

[Wellywanga]

Just to add to the effects on women.

In Sports, skeletal structure, muscles, higher levels of testosterone whilst growing and training , of a man is very significant.

Yet reducing testosterone for 2 years to a level which is still much higher than the highest womans testosterone level. Will still leave women at a devastating disadvantage.

Yet this is whats happening. Male athlete says he's a woman then can compete against women who have trained for years to get to the top of their sport, to be shat on by by a male bodied athlete.

This is why the current stupidity IS damaging to women and girls.

[numberseven]

If George W sports a dress and comes out as southern belle Georgina, the US had their first woman president ages ago?

[FloraFox]

According to TAs, we have no way of knowing who the first female leader of the Labour Party or US president was - any one of them may have been a closeted MTT and therefore a woman - heck maybe even all of them! Maybe we've never had a male leader of the Labour Party / US president since the only way to know someone's gender is if they tell you.

[WankingMonkey]

'Britain’s first female infantry soldier to serve in the Army has told how she was born a boy and described how honoured she is “to be able to make history”

Its not the reporting that is the issue here. Not only the reporting maybe. The individual her/himself is trying to put themselves down in history as actually the first woman. So no, its not just the media twisting the story to make it more 'sensational' or whatever.

[WinchesterWoman]

Yes Wanking monkey this is what makes him a shitty shit.

[WankingMonkey]

If Hilary is elected and comes out as Henry, a transman, does that mean we have had our first two gay married presidents (Bill and Henry)?

[EveOnline2016]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/12127067/woman-says-she-is-a-cat-trapped-in-the-wrong-body.html

Going by this story.

This women believes she was born the wrong species. Now if we legally allowed her to be a cat then what implications would that have on this women.

For example if she had children would she be the first cat to have a human baby. Would she have human rights.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

There's a number issue as well. We know that there are more transwomen than transmen. There are areas (army, prison) where women are massively outnumbered by men.

So it is conceivable that an organization seeking to increase female numbers could do it entirely with transwomen. We know that boards, three women is when change happens to culture. If a board seeks to do this and ends up with three transwomen or even 2 and 1, it will look like change but won't actually be change.

Someone did the maths with prisons and worked out using proportions that if every transwomen that was in the male estate moved, there would be about 25% transwomen in the female estate. This matters when women are massively underrepresented.

[VeryBitchyRestingFace]

This women believes she was born the wrong species. Now if we legally allowed her to be a cat then what implications would that have on this women.

Lol. Must be a Radfem plant.

[Prawnofthepatriarchy]

Nah, if she was a radfem plant she'd be cross-pollinated, not cross species. A transpotted plant, you could say...

[Cisoff]

"I'll be honest, it never occurred to me not to think of a transwoman as anything other than a woman."

Interesting. What is your definition of 'woman'?

Hecantbeserious, what is your definition of violence? Would murder or assault count?

Check out how many actual women are murdered by their partners or ex-partners each year in the country where you live. Then next I guess you could look up how many woman are hospitalised due to domestic violence. A good starting point.

Also, I have a uterus. I might at some point develop a condition which may necessitate its removal. A male is never in any danger of a similar experience. Likewise, I don't have a prostate. If you've had yours whipped out, for any reason, it doesn't make you a woman. Do you understand?

[HeCantBeSerious]

I wasn't saying that I think women that have had hysterectomies aren't women anymore. I was responding to a sentence that (I think) implied that.

[Cisoff]

And here's me just thinking you were being a smartarse.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

I added extra facts about how at times down to complications a woman's womb may not fully develop, after a hysterectomy some women still have their cervix/ovaries other women don't and so on

Because it's a predictable and ridiculous argument that a woman suddenly because a non woman after surgery or is a non women due to medical complications and comes up time and time again

[MangoMoon]

Quite frankly I think women missed a trick over the last few years.

Had one of those women who wanted to join the infantry had simply had the thought to 'identify as a man' then they'd have been accepted into the infantry without question - being as how it's all so inclusive etc...

That would have been signed off immediately, surely?!
Or not...

[MangoMoon]

Too many 'had' s in last post

[napmeistergeneral]

The more I think about this, the more it just seems like misogyny. A man can be anything he wants, even a woman, without question. While women have to fight for the most basic recognition.

[Beachcomber]

Oh for goodness sake Hecantbeserious, the poster said

Females have the reproductive organs to carry and give birth

Nowhere did they imply that they considered a woman post hysterectomy to no longer be a woman.

I think we all know what female is. Anyone who is confused might want to think about babies. Every single baby in the world and in the entire history of humanity was carried and birthed by a female human (even Jesus!). (For the hard of thinking the above does not mean that I am saying that only humans who have carried and birthed babies are female.)

IMO, the definition of "woman" is less straightforward due to its socio-political nature (whereas female is simple biology). The current definition I'm using is:

Woman: adult human female belonging to the biological sex born which has a female reproductive system and chromosomes who was raised as a girl child in male supremacist society and socialized in the system of gender; a social order in which human males are awarded higher status and value than human females.

[LadyConstanceDeCoverlet]

A man can be anything he wants, even a woman, without question.

But, by those criteria, a woman can be a man, without question.

[AskBasil]

Except she can't can she.

Because unless she has a superlative transition job, men will still treat her as a woman.

[FirstShinyRobe]

And she couldn't have just said she was a man because I don't think women can pass the fitness tests that have been designed for men and their physicality. That's a whole other can of worms, though.

Reminds me of the argument I had with a police mate about female officer whose standard issue motor bike was too big for her. There was outrage because she was bought a smaller bike,despite the fact that the smaller bike meant that she could then do the exact same job as the male officers. Bit of a non sequitur, but I thought I'd chuck it in anyway!

[CancellyMcChequeface]

I wonder if a man who failed the male fitness tests could decide he identified as a woman and be judged by the female standards instead. If Danielle Muscato is right and womanhood is just a feeling, this hypothetical 'female' soldier wouldn't even have to cross-dress like Chloe.

Or does the army have separate male and female fitness tests because it recognises basic, objective biological differences?

[Genvonklinkerhoffen]

Some tests are "gender free" (that's the official term) and we all have to achieve them. Some are "gender fair" and have different standards for men and women (and age).

I'm pretty sure this is all under review as the thinking is that our tests aren't fit for purpose.

They've changed a lot in the states to make the tests actually useful i.e. They've asked "what does an infantry soldier need to be able to lift/pull/carry in order to do their job?" And developed tests that way.

Which I think is sensible as then it really represents the difficulty of the job and if you can pass then you can pass.
I would hope that we are going that way...

[WankingMonkey]

I don't think women can pass the fitness tests that have been designed for men and their physicality.

I think the military tests are just to weed out the fittest of the fit tbh, rather than designed for men. The sites I were reading last night were talking about very valid concerns about women on the frontline..I don't know if this is true or it they were talking about 'what ifs' but the general conversation was about how the fitness tests will be 'altered' for women, thus meaning not as stressful on the body, and in turn meaning some of the hand to hand combat fighters will not be as physically fit as they need to be, and then putting the entire group in danger. It did kind of make sense to me. Of course women (real women, not men in dresses) should be able to do everything men can do, BUT standards cannot be lowered for this to happen..lowering standards in physical jobs puts everyone in danger, if that makes sense.

[Nataleejah]

The thing against women in infantry is not just about physical fitness. It also implies psychological factors for men, things like men would naturally act to protect a woman, while endangering themselves and the whole team. Or that there is a high risk that a woman would be raped in case of capture.
I wonder how it works with cross-dressers now.