First woman to fight on the frontline

[napmeistergeneral]

Transgender woman becomes "first female" in British army to serve on frontline.
Link is to the guardian but covered by other outlets also.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/17/transgender-soldier-is-first-female-to-serve-on-the-front-line

I don't doubt it's an incredibly hard and scary thing to be a trans woman in the army and for that chloe deserves support and praise. But I'm afraid I still feel unconvinced by the "first woman" claim.

AIBU to feel uncomfortable and unconvinced about firsts for women being claimed by trans women?

The post stated that:

Females have the reproductive organs to carry and give birth

By that statement/logic a female who has had a hysterectomy does not have these anymore so isn't female.

I don't think it's a given that FTM are accepted as men. I certainly don't think that men accept them as men.

Wankingmonkey

Well put, my thoughts exactly.

Nobody is saying that the first women on the front line (officially) need to go through a media circus if they dont want to, but to claim a man is the 1st woman is ridiculous.

Why it is important to use the word woman accurately:

1. Women are physically different to men. This isn't always relevant, but sometimes - medical care, sports, personal safety, provision for different needs e.g. Periods, breast feeding - it is.
2. Using the term woman to mean some vague feminine quality is very harmful to women and men ( and the same applies to man/masculine).
3. women are still subject to discrimination and it isn't possible to identify a group if you don't have a word to describe them.

Of course a woman who has had a hysterectomy is still a woman.

No they have had them removed likely down to medical complications

They might still have their ovaries,
Fallopian tubes and cervix these can also be removed it does not make these women no longer women it just means that part of their reproductive system has had to be removed

Men are not born with female reproductive organs theirs are different that is why the sexes are different our bodies are designed to work differently

Such ridiculous arguments you are posting are you a transwomen ?

You know what this is?

It is a two fingered salute to women. We are being mocked and having the piss taken out of our humanity.

I don't believe for a second that the press think this person is a woman and nor do the army. But this is being reported as though wider society believes that because it's fun to display utter contempt for women whilst pretending to be a right on tolerant progressive.

This is in our face women hating. It is contempt. It is misogyny of outrageous proportions.

There's nothing tolerant or progressive here - Chloe and all other prominent men who transition are being used. They are being used to say "fuck you" to girls and women.

Wake up liberals - you are being used too. No doubt this will be another peak trans moment for many, it's too bloody late though.

Beachcomber yes yes and yes again

No it doesn't affect men. Pathetic.

And I'm so sick of hearing clever dicks parroting "oh so if a woman has a hysterectomy then you don't count her as female then?" as though it is something smart to say rather than utterly vacuous and misogynistic to boot.

It's always hysterectomies that are cited cos we all know that women are actually only walking incubators. And the same people in a total contradiction will in the next sentence then claim that a man with his penis removed is no longer a man.

This is what pushed me to peak trans. When they started to be the first women to [insert achivement]

Fuck that.

Yes beachcomber. It's a bare faced insult that is frankly goading women.

My peak trans was Anna lee

Can't we have a 'hate the sin and love the sinner' approach? Namely discuss the broad implications of things like this without being unkind about the actual individual involved?

On the one hand yes. On the other hand, what kind of a person are you if you put on earrings and paint your nails and then go to the media claiming you're the first woman to do X when you full well know you haven't actually taken any steps towards "womanhood" ?

A narcissist? A man who practices autogynephilia?

Beachcomber I responded only to that specific sentence. If the poster meant the sec organs that were there at birth then they should have said that.

*sex

So you honestly think the point if post was that women who have had hysterectomies are men?

Winchester, at least the headlines were (in my mind) correct in Anna's case: first trans woman to run for women's officer. I imagine because "first woman to run for women's officer" would have been absurd. Yet "first man to give birth" is not an absurd headline, it seems.

WindPower, yes ideally.

oranges, your point about Chloe having done women a favour by drawing the fire of publicity about being the first "woman" is a bit...odd? I can't find quite the right word there. But what about the sense of achievement, of personal and professional competence and recognition by peers that the first actual woman has now had taken from her by this performance? It's not all about being feted by the press and paraded around. For the first woman, I expect it to be an inspiring and difficult journey, and an exceptional and admirable woman who makes it, and I'm really cross that achievement has now been tarnished and made lesser.

The poster said :
"Females have the reproductive organs to carry and give birth"

And you reduced that to what is commonly removed in a hysterectomy - the uterus.

Women don't have their entire reproductive systems removed nor their birth canal when they have a hysterectomy. And even if they did it wouldn't make them no longer female - it would make them a female who has had a medical procedure.

It's just such a stupid point to try and score and it really gets on my wick.

So you honestly think the point if post was that women who have had hysterectomies are men?

I'm actually not sure what the poster intended it to mean if not that. The language is pretty important here.

Hean'tbeserious: If you seriously want to push the argument that Chloe Allen is a woman, then do so instead of being tricksy.

What do you think a woman is? How do you define a woman? What is it about Chloe allen that makes her a woman? What are the markers that Chloe Allen shares with all other actual women and with transwomen?

makes her a woman - gosh darn it - makes him a woman I meant to say

Come off it, hecant

Is it this post you're talking about? Females have the reproductive organs to carry and give birth (thought not all females are able to do so due to medical complications, not because they are male)

How on earth is that not clear?

FWIW, I have had a hysterectomy and it pisses me off MIGHTILY when people use my situation for whataboutery. I still have ovaries and a vagina, which I understand are somewhat helpful in reproduction.