To not like the organ donation pressure?

[AtSea1979]

Don't get me wrong I fully support an opt out rather than in policy.
However DD (7 yo) has come home with a form and is asking lots of questions and it all seems a bit much. She has asked me what would I do if she died and whether I'd let them remove her organs etc and whether I'd do the same if it was me. The head cheerfully informed me they have an important letter we all should sign.
I find it all a bit bully tactics, surely it's a personal choice and nothing to do with anyone else.

NoelHeadbands touched on a very important facet to this discussion very early in the thread: I don't think it's pressure, I think it's encouraging both children and adults alike to talk about it and not treat organ donation as a taboo subject.

Further posters have commented on how their kids would be too upset to discuss this. I think this is a key issue that needs de-tabooing in general.

Death is inevitable. We can all agree on that, right? So why do so many people pretend it doesn't exist as a concept, meaning the first time a child knows about it is when a loved relative or family pet pops its clogs? That's a pretty harsh introduction.

Demystifying the wondrous circle of life, and directly associated things like organ donation as simply part of living (and loving) would do a lot of people a lot of good. Get speakers into schools to explain how donation helped them (as relatives of donors, direct recipients etc). Make it normal, make it ordinary, make it OK to ask questions and understand that its ok to be sad about a death, that its ok to not want to die, but its also ok to give dozens of other people life etc. Inspire children with the absolute amazement that scientists and doctors can even do this (get more girls into STEM as a by-product!). The opportunities are endless.

'Its an interesting discussion. Personally I agree that there shouold be an opt-out system as there is in other countries. I agree though that I wouldn't be keen on discussing it with young children, but I suppose I naively assumed that if anything happened to DS he wouldn't need to consent because we would do that for him. I forgot that there may be a horrible scenario in which me and his dad might not be there to do that. I think I will sign him up." if there is no-one to consent then organs would not be taken afaik. So in the scenario where both parents are killed and only the children survive and there is no NOK there is no consent and thus no donation.

If I was likely to change my mind in the emotional termoil following whatever harrowing circumstances I was in, then all the more reason that I would want firm directions made in a clear calm time to guide me to the right thing to do.

I meant to add that I have a firend who recieved a double lung transplant 6 years ago at the age of 25. She was literally on the brink of death and what she has done with her life since the transplant is nothing short of incredible. Its pretty certain that she will not have a full life expectancy, but she has really lived every minute since in gratitude about what the transplant has given her in terms of time. When she speaks about her donor she so so very very thankful to them and their family (she was also allowed to write to them to express this) that it brings me to tears.

Honestly, organ donation is a wonedrful wonderful thing. Its scary and horrible but also life-changing and life-saving.

It turned out that he was able to communicate with the doctors through blinking, and was able to communicate that actually, he didn't want to die after all.

Yes but he was still alive. Consent or otherwise to a medical procedure while still alive is a million miles away from trying to decide what you might want when you're dead. You will be dead therefore by definition will have no opinion on the matter. I really don't see the corollary between your example and organ donation.

The corallation is between people claiming that they absolutely know how they would feel in the event of their child's death and how they would know that why would want their child's organs to be donated, even if they have never personally been in a situation to be told that their child is dead.

the fact is that until you have been there you cannot possibly know. Some people are even stating that they would take comfort from knowing their child had given their organs. Again, they cannot possibly know.

I think that if my child died I would want to end my own life because I wouldn't want to imagine living without him. But in the event he actually died I cannot possibly know that I would go through with killing myself as well, because I've not been there.

And nobody can possibly know what you would take comfort from in the event of your child's death unless you have actually experienced the death of a child. To do so is insulting to those who have actually lost children.

As usual my post ninja'd itself about my dead DF and about how it gave us great comfort to be able to donate after his death.

It's absolutely ridiculous to cherry pick who you'd have on your list of recipients

Yes, lots of people have committed heinous crimes etc but unfortunately they are still members of society.
Could you imagine the slippery slope there? Singling out one demographic, y'know like Hitler...

I also find it beyond cold that a poster would rather certain people they know die before they'd allow a donation.
I don't think I've ever hated anyone quite that much.

I do sympathise-I've had patients to tend to and it's painful when a lovely little old man has to wait ages behind someone who is drunk and abusive because their immediate need is greater, but that's life.

At the point, it's a decision for NOK, and only NOK but donor cards and the discussion they generate before hand can be a big help. It's a huge responsibility for someone to make the decision without prior knowledge of wishes.

Ok. wannabe, I stand corrected and again I apologise. That's a repellent statement:

IMO it's OK to opt out or refuse, if you are certain you would never want anyone else's bits for yourself or your nearest and dearest.

Maybe people who are resolute that they would never donate should sign a waiver to say they will never ask or expect to receive, either.

Having said that, I don't think I like the idea of this being raised at primary school level. Young children can get very upset and worried about things they may not properly understand, and will not necessarily tell anyone, just keep the worry to themselves.

*It worries me a bit that someone who really doesn't want their organs donated and isn't aware of the change, of low intelligence or simply doesn't get around to opting out may have it done anyway

Although anyone's wishes can currently be overruled anyway if their NOK disagrees.

I think that if my child died I would want to end my own life because I wouldn't want to imagine living without him. But in the event he actually died I cannot possibly know that I would go through with killing myself as well, because I've not been there

No, I'm sorry but there are things you do KNOW. I know I might want to kill myself, but I also know that I would not, because I have other children. I KNOW that, more than I know that water is wet.

You don't have to have been in every situation to know how you would react, because you know yourself and who you are.

As far as I understand opt in / opt out for organ donation, if you opt in then further consent is still required (once the person in question is dead) from the next of kin for organ donation to take place. If opt out is chosen it can be overridden by the next of kin.

So it's not presumed consent. And it's not something binding decided in advance that you can't change.

Oh the poor little 7yo's who have to be told about organ donation! They will have been told in a sensitive none scary manner I can assure you.

Personally I save my sympathy for the 7yo's who are awaiting transplants, or who have a loved one who is waiting on a transplant.

If adults hide death and organ donation away, like a shameful secret, then these children aren't going to be as accepting because they'll find it 'yucky' too.

Donate or don't donate - but don't refuse to have the conversation because your scared of what will be enviable anyway (death).

Oh the poor little 7yo's who have to be told about organ donation

This isn't very empathetic....it could make some dc quite anxious or upset. It is also pointless IMO as the decision would be down to the parents anyway.

And nobody can possibly know what you would take comfort from in the event of your child's death unless you have actually experienced the death of a child. To do so is insulting to those who have actually lost children.

So... you're saying that those of us who have strong feelings about the positive impact of child organ donation shouldn't think through their positions and discuss them with our partners NOW, with healthy children running around, because there's no point, as we will be unable to think straight should the worst happen?

Many people have lost children because they have been unable to get donor organs - from other children. I am thinking through my position on what I would want to happen if one of my children should die, so that I do not have to struggle with a brand new concept should I ever be handed that form to sign.

cocklodger You're being difficult on purpose here. You are not the only person on this thread with Hepatitis or antibodies, and you know perfectly well that there is a huge difference between saying that you don't WANT to donate, and having a condition that makes you UNABLE to donate.

Of course I wasn't being empathetic. Several posts have mentioned that it wasn't appropriate for this conversation to take place in school and I disagree with that entirely. People use the fact that children are sensitive to avoid having these conversations. But children will usually handle these conversations very well if it is done in the right context and allows them a chance to talk about it.

Certainly the OP was more offended than her child was. But most people would shield their child away from it, which doesn't help with the level of acceptance.

Yes it will be their parents decision whether the child will donate their organs, but if the child has spoken about it, they will be able to develop their own opinion on it, and by the age of gillick competency may sign up themselves. Of course should something happen the NOK (parents) could still refuse, but the child may have expressed an opinion on what they thought about it by then.

Plus it would hopefully lead to adults who weren't afraid to discuss it, because it wasn't a hidden, taboo topic.

rackham just to clarify I wasn't saying you should try and change your DH's mind or sign your kids up. Others have commented here that even if you carry a card your next of kin has to sign off on the donation, so if your DH doesn't accept your choice he could override your wishes.

Yes Em, I wasn't aiming the other part at you after saying thank you just adding some more to the discussion. Thanks Dear x
He knows how strongly I feel about it, I'll be suprised if he goes against my wishes once I'm dead. Well I won't be surprised I'll be dead lol. What I mean is he's hoping I will change my mind about it. But with a sister with CF, how could I.

DP says that he doesn't know what he thinks. (And doesn't really want to think about it.) So if he was automatically on a list he wouldn't actively remove himself.

I'm very pro. And I think I'll be discussing this with the kids this weekend.

I think if you opt out of giving you should have to opt out of receiving. I reckon a lot less would opt out!

I think if you opt out of giving you should have to opt out of receiving.

Medical care should be given based on clinical need rather than your "morality".

I spent 6 months working on a childrens intensive care unit and looked after children and families going through the transplant process; and is definitely quite a process. I wont go into the details but I have the upmost admiration for families that do donate. I know it does offer comfort in the long term, but its not quite that straight forward and is another thing to deal with whilst the very worst is already happening. When I'm dead, I don't care what happens to my organs, but it would be my family's choice as they are the ones that would have to go through it. I think organ donation is incredible, but I wouldn't judge anybody who chooses not to do it, especially when it comes to their children.

I'm amazed how utterly clueless people are.

I thought I knew who I was before my child died. I didn't. Her death threw a grenade in my entire being.

'I would just die!' 'I wouldn't because I know myself.'

You.have.no.idea.

'Demystifying the wondrous circle of life, and directly associated things like organ donation as simply part of living (and loving) would do a lot of people a lot of good. Get speakers into schools to explain how donation helped them (as relatives of donors, direct recipients etc). Make it normal, make it ordinary, make it OK to ask questions and understand that its ok to be sad about a death, that its ok to not want to die, but its also ok to give dozens of other people life etc. Inspire children with the absolute amazement that scientists and doctors can even do this (get more girls into STEM as a by-product!). The opportunities are endless.'

It's okay to be sad about death? This is about death, you know. You're not 'just sad' and that's okay, because you can make others better. You can become so aggrieved you die yourself. Your life or that of your family's can be radically altered forever, with life-changing effects for those who are left behind. The fuck I want the government preaching to my children their values of what their life is in their own death. As for 'it'll be done nicely, not scary,' it would fuck the fuck out of my children, particularly my son who has Asperger's. Their sister died and that has caused huge ramifications for our entire family. If they were given or subjected to any sort of propaganda at school without my consent I'd be furious.

It is my job to teach them about life, death, organ donation, bodily autonomy, personal freedom, religion, etc., not the state's, whatever their agenda.

As for all this 'If you're not on the register, or your child, then you or your child should not be eligible to receive a transplant' flies in the face of organ donation being the paragon of altruism.

cocklodger I wouldn't be able to donate my organs either, or the organs of my son.

But that's not what's being discussed here. No one has said or implied that people who have health conditions that mean their organs cant be used are in any way responsible for this. That would be a nonsense wouldn't it?!

Obviously I'm ignoring the spectacular failure of yanbu to read your post properly. Though actually that highlights the ridiculousness of anyone trying to make 'a thing' out of people who cannot donate!

I've read this thread with interest as its so very important. I'm sad that my body is so rubbish that it wouldn't be used to help others. It's not been terribly helpful to me either, so probably for the best.

I do wonder though, about whether it would be better for someone who might be desperate and dying on the waiting list, to see if my faulty organs would help them?

I have a genetic disorder which effects the building blocks of our bodies. It's a (very unpleasant) lottery about how bad it is and which organs it effects. I will most likely die of it unless something like a road accident gets me first. But if my organs could be saved for donation, would it be better to have an imperfect organ which may or may not go wrong in the future, rather than the death sentence facing someone if they don't get a transplant.

Would it be better to have hope, and a few more years? Or would it be not worth it from a health service standpoint and / or the person themselves?

Have no idea how these things work, but maybe a donated organ would be adopted into the new body and be controlled by the new bodies DNA, therefore eliminating the dodgy building instructions my DNA gives? Or is the organ always a separate entity within a transplant patients body, cells being renewed according to the original DNA instruction booklet?

Absolutely what expat said.