To not like the organ donation pressure?

[AtSea1979]

Don't get me wrong I fully support an opt out rather than in policy.
However DD (7 yo) has come home with a form and is asking lots of questions and it all seems a bit much. She has asked me what would I do if she died and whether I'd let them remove her organs etc and whether I'd do the same if it was me. The head cheerfully informed me they have an important letter we all should sign.
I find it all a bit bully tactics, surely it's a personal choice and nothing to do with anyone else.

As a resident in Wales we already have to opt out if we do not want to have our organs taken after death. As it's MY body I wish to retain the right to choose what happens to it so I have opted out. Fortunately my children are now adult so will have to make the decision themselves.

fluffy you criticise expat for quite rightly pointing out why giving control of our bodies to the state is so wrong, and yes, the comparison to bodily autonomy and termination is every bit appropriate, yet you have the audacity to assume how bereaved parents should feel, and to assume that you have a right to judge them as being selfish.

I know who is being distasteful, and it isn't expat.

'I find it actually quite offensive that you would use emotive topics, and such hard won rights as abortion and criminalisation of marital rape, in order to try and bolster your argument for organ donation as a tool of oppressive government.
Really fucking distasteful, dude. Have some respect.'

You can think whatever you like. I'm not arguing, you are. I disagree with the state having ultimate control of a person's body (court sections and the like exempted, naturally) and or/any decision regarding their end-of-life care, including when a person might decide to end his/her life, or over his/her remains. I see having autonomy over one's own body, be it over reproduction, sex, how you'd like your body to be treated (as pointed out, if we're all just dead, we're 'just meat' as some poster charmingly put it, it doesn't matter what happens and you don't need anything after you're dead, then why is having sex with a corpse and grave robbing illegal?) as a fundamental human right.

I'm not a 'dude' and scolding me to have 'respect' just makes you look like, well, I'll leave that to the fantastic imaginations of MNers.

"But I resent being called selfish, uneducated etc for having hepatitis, Incase that isn't clear now my comment is removed"

You weren't.

yet you have the audacity to assume how bereaved parents should feel, and to assume that you have a right to judge them as being selfish

That is unfucking fair and you owe me an apology for it. I only commented on how I personally would feel. I stated that I know what I would do. I never presumed to say how any other bereaved parents should feel, not once.
I know how I felt when I was asked to donate tissue samples from foetal remains for studies on repeated late miscarriage. I know how I felt when I sat in intensive care while my child was in surgery they had a good chance of not surviving. I knew then that I would donate organs if possible and I know it now.
It was YOU that had the audacity to tell me I could not know what I would do.

I know who is being distasteful, and it isn't expat

Indeed, its definitely you.

No you didn't. You stated you knew how you would feel, you did not acknowledge that people can react differently when faced with a reality than when they are sitting on an Internet forum proclaiming that in the event of X they would definitely feel Y and know they would do z. Because your own situation is your own. You cannot tell others how they would feel.

As I stated upthread some people do believe what they would do in the event of the loss of a child, and when faced with that situation they follow through and act according to how they feel. But for some people, when faced with the loss of a child they act totally differently to how they believed they would. And there are people on this thread who judge them for it.

Interesting how no-one has sought to respond to my suggestion that people actually consider not wanting to donate organs as being a worse crime than rape or murder, given people are not suggesting rapists or murderers shouldn't be eligible to receive an organ yet are suggesting that someone who doesn't sign up to the register and will probably never be in a position to donate anyway shouldn't receive an organ.

Op im in my 30's And i had a donor card as a child , it's not a new thing.
( sure i still have that card somewhere).
I've told my family very firmly my wishes.
If there's anything of use that docs can take then they're wellcome to it.
I'm not going to need it, but others might.
I haven't just said this, i have told them my wishes since i was young.
it's on my license too.
It should be opt out.

'That is unfucking fair and you owe me an apology for it.'

We're all entitled to our opinions. I find yours bordering on hysterical and nonsensical. Hope you can find some space to chill out in the near future.

You've had some near misses. You have NEVER been, thankfully, the one who has been told your child is brain dead. I hope you never find out what you'd actually do in that situation because it means only one thing, and that thing is never good no matter what comes out of it.

I suppose however, it's far easier to get het up, wound up and explode at others.

You stated you knew how you would feel

Yes, as I said.

You cannot tell others how they would feel

I didn't. YOU did. You told me I couldn't possibly say. I can.

Interesting how no-one has sought to respond to my suggestion that people actually consider not wanting to donate organs as being a worse crime than rape or murder

Yet another thing no-one actually said.

All kicked off then

Oh the poor little 7yo's who have to be told about organ donation! They will have been told in a sensitive none scary manner I can assure you.

Will they? Different children react differently, ds would not have coped with any discussion no matter how sensitive the delivery (and would have have been dealing with the fall out for days).

The donation propaganda can cross the line into feeling like blackmail, guilt tripping a person into doing something they are not comfortable with is poor practice.

I don't agree with my ds and I hope one day he makes peace with his past and changes his mind about organ donation, until then I will keep my promise to respect his views.

I support organ donation but am strongly against presumed consent and if we had an opt out system I would opt out.

I believe in freedom of choice and body autonomy, just as I do for abortion and therefore presumed consent to me is negative step. I suspect it's an issue for many people.

I can understand the emotional dilemma when considering child organ donation.

But your own? You'd rather take them to the grave with you, than potentially save someone's life?

Breathtaking.

Some really thought provoking posts, thank you expat and Wannabe.

I hope it doesn't kick off as I think this thread is important actually. Its capturing the heart of the issues around organ donation, the different perspectives and facets of a complex issue. I've also really appreciated the sensible thinking around the implications of the different ways of encouraging/ enforcing organ donation.

Civil liberties are easy to give, or take, and very hard to win back. Citing the greater good or a moral
imperative is a strong motivation to accept changing the balance of power and belonging of the only thing we truly own, our flesh & blood. Allowing the state to take over ownership is something that isn't just repugnant, it's dangerous. It's not good enough to argue it would be OK because we trust our current government (?!). However, imagine the implications under a less 'benign' leadership...

Yes stoic, i would rather take my organs to the grave than allowed them to be used, i also wouldnt accept an organ.

I do have ideological beliefs and i dont think as others on this thread have said that i should be ignored or my beliefs be ignored.

We are all entitled to our own choice and bodily autonomy and this is my choice for me and i have told my nok my choice.

I would also not accept an organ for my child or give one, they know the reasons why and we have discussed it and they agree. If they change their minds as adults than thats their choice.

The pro donation lobby do bully as this thread proves, im not a morally reprehensible person, i just have other beliefs to you that i feel strongly. I did not say you who are prepared to donatr were morally reprehensible so why say that about me.

The language used around donation is already bullying and emotive and guilt inducing, i dread to think what opt out would bring and i shudder at more atate control.

My family have been affected by organ donation so my beliefs are not pie in the sky but they are mine to have and nobody should take away my right to do as i see fit with my body and with my childrens.

For the record i would not give or accept stem cells from my newborn, blood and bone marrow.

I dont trust the state to be the arbiter of moral decisions, sorry too much history has shown what state power can do and the ever growing nanny state has not sorted out any of the problems that it has attempted to, but instead things have got worse.

So no i would not trust them to make that decision even if i was willing to donate or agreed with the principles or organ donation.

I believe people should have the choice on whether they donate or receive an organ and that decision should be respected. However, I believe the default position should always be to what will save life and people should have to opt out of doing that.

At the moment the default position is that something that could save a life will not be done unless someone specifically says they wish it to happen and next of kin support that decision at the time of death. I feel that says something pretty grim about our priorities as a society.

I did donate my sons organs.

I had a long chat about the process and was able to request a lot of (probably stupid) things like for one of the theatre staff to hole his hand, for certain music to be played, I was able to show photos and talk to the person who was going to hold his hand so she really knew him. It meant a lot to me to do that.

Had he been older and there was presumed consent that would have been taken away from me.

If there was a system that only allowed those willing to donate organs to receive I'm not so sure I would have donated his organs at all. It's a heartbreaking decision to make at an already heartbreaking time and nobody knows how they would act in that situation until they are there.

I can't stand the thought of someone watching their child, parent, partner, sibling or loved one die for the state to prove a point, using organ donation as an ultimatum is a horrific thought.

I do have ideological beliefs and i dont think as others on this thread have said that i should be ignored or my beliefs be ignored.

Fortunately, they won't be. Fortunately for you, that is. Not for anyone else.

My DS died three years ago. We were able to donate his heart valves. I wish we could have given more but it wasn't possible.

We are lucky in that organ donation was something that he and I had actually discussed a few weeks beforehand. He died in an accident and was an adult but it was something he felt strongly about. I also felt the same.

At the moment his heart valves are still being stored. I wish they would hurry up and use them as they are only useable for another two years. I would so love to know that a part of my darling boy is running around in somebody else. They would be so lucky.

I opened this thread and thought to myself that I would wait for Wannabe to post before I even attempted to because I knew she would say everything I wanted to say but couldn't put into words very well

Great posts Wannabe.

However, I believe the default position should always be to what will save life and people should have to opt out of doing that.

The organ donation process is not a case of dead person, 5 minutes later whip 'em out. It is complex.

This thread has brought the process back into my head and something occured to me later yesterday. My dm wasn't dead when we were discussing organ donation. She was badly brain damaged. One possibility was that her heart stopped in intensive care, prior to all being in place. We put a DNR in place, meaning that organ donation would not have been possible. With 'presumed consent' would that have been allowed or would the state have insisted on her heart being re started if possible?

On another note dm also wasn't particularly young, she was in her 60s. She was a healthy woman who died suddenly though.

I can't stand the thought of someone watching their child, parent, partner, sibling or loved one die for the state to prove a point, using organ donation as an ultimatum is a horrific thought

I couldn't agree more. The staff involved in dm's care were wonderful, respectful and treated her with love and care while she made her final selfless act. How would things change? It makes me shudder. And I'm so sorry you went through this with your ds, that truly is another level to it being a parent.

Regardless of opt-in/opt-out arguments, this thread is one of the most important I've ever read on mumsnet.

If this triggers discussions amongst families about organ donation, and prompts people to share their wishes with their loved ones (whether those wishes are to donate or not), then it's served an incredible purpose.

Lily and Elsa, I can't begin to imagine what you have been through and I hope I never have to. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

I've just sat with my DH and discussed whether he would want to donate his organs (he would).

We also talked about whether we feel we could donate our DC's organs should it come to it. We both agree that right now, outside of that intense, overwhelming grief, we feel we would want to. I only hope that should the worst ever happened I have the courage of my convictions like you both did. But as others have said, you can't know until you are in that situation and I just have to pray I never will be. But I'm glad to have had that discussion.