to ask would you send your eldest Dc to a grammar school?

[var12]

Hypothetical question... if there were grammar schools in your area and your DC1 was offered a place, would you accept it?

var12 Tue 20-Sep-16 11:11:23 But how would you approach that. If you have time, role play the approach to the school or the other parent (one of whom I know only by sight and the other who is lovely but I haven't seen for two years).

Well to be honest my DC has always enjoyed school and as far as I'm concerned, if he is happy to go then I have no issues.

Yes I did speak to the other parents of G&T highly able/exceptional children, mainly because the G&T highly able/exceptional children were often sat next to each other in class and were friends. He had lots of play dates/birthday parties which involved the parents having coffee together and chatting.

As for the role play with the teacher. I never needed it. My DC was happy at school and although he found some of the maths lessons "a bit boring" he still really liked school. He always came home buzzing from the G&T highly able/exceptional exercises he had worked on with his class mates and also like taking part in the peer-to-peer learning exercises.

Mind you, I've no idea if my DC is in the top 1% as I've never had him assessed.

I try to be reasonable and considerate to teachers, and I always aim to stop to avoid triggering them into hostility (that first HT aside). After all, I would hate my sons to be caught in the middle between the school and me.

Please remember about this thread that I've been under quite hostile attack for quite a bit of it, and for substantial parts my words were being picked apart and (deliberately?) misinterpreted. Additionally, I haven't been responding like it matters how you perceive me, so I've been fighting back when at times you've been ganging up against me. If we were talking in real life, and everything I said was repeated back, mocked and scorned and I was being passed from one person to another, it would be quite different. Anyway, this is a side of me, but not the one the school sees.

I've read the thread, thanks. I've seen how you've responded to sympathy, advice, suggestions and alternative perspectives.

MumTryingHerBest - maybe you are lucky about never having had to do an assessment, because a SEN was never suspected?? So rather than sneering if someone else has had to go through that, and deal with the results, you just remember that you are fortunate and thank your lucky stars??

I don't think you can classify people as ganging up on you on a thread, people disagreed with you, you used terms and certain arguments to make your point and then contradicted yourself, its the nature of debate to point this out.

sympathy - did I throw is back in people's faces? When? I am sorry if I ever did that.
advice, suggestions - I answered as many i could, explainign that I've already tried many of the things
alternative perspectives - I believe you all about your own experiences. they are just as valid as mine. Mine doesn't mean you are lying, or misperceiving the situation and vice versa.

var12 Tue 20-Sep-16 11:41:01 MumTryingHerBest - maybe you are lucky about never having had to do an assessment, because a SEN was never suspected??

Actually highly able/ exceptional is classes as SEN in my DCs school.

SEN is suspected but I don't see a need for an assessment. I did get DC2 assessed and SEN was confirmed. My DC1 was very happy at school, DC2 hated it.

smallfox2002 - yes, that's fine. But there were points when I'd log in to find several people all highlighting my words and trying to pull them apart.

About the contradction - you were at one point saying that I was twisting and turning about Ds1's centile. I perhaps did not explain it well but I wasn't contradicting myself.
There are 3 boys in his year, including Ds1 who are very good at maths. It might just be two who are very good, and one who is much better than most. That equates to just over 1% of his year.
Ds1 did an educational assessment that put him in the top 1% of the population. Then he did an external national competition, in which he scored very highly, again indicating that he's top 1% somewhere.
I don't think that's exceptional but maybe that is just my understanding of the word. To me exceptional is something that happens once in a blue moon, not once in every hundred children that go through your classroom.

(BTW I am sorry for being so dismissive about you as a teacher - i was angry and said things that i didn't rally mean as I thought you were trying to be spiteful to me. I hope it did not cause you any upset).

Mumtryingherbest - let me offer some advice, which you can take or ignore. Ds1 has a SEN. and he's very intelligent, making him twice exceptional. At first the ability masked the SEN but eventually it began to stand out. It was causing him deep frustration and unhappiness. I did not want the SEN to be true and if it was true, I did not ant it to make a difference. But it is true and it does make a difference.
At first the assessment just helped us understand what was going on, but with each passing year, its clear that Ds1 needs help to workaround his SEN. he won't beat it, but its a question of not letting it beat him.
Honestly, if I were you, i'd get the assessment done and even if you put it in a locked drawer and never need it, at least you'll have the option and the opportunity to learn what you could do to help your child adjust so that life does not become overwhelming for them.

I realise you won't want to hear this, and you'll likely dismiss it, but IME it is good advice and it is well intentioned.

Absolutely. I am aware that these problems exist there. And I understand that neither system is perfect. Sometimes by recognising that you can help improve the system for everyone.

My point is that if you have a bad experience it is possible that you might attribute the cause to one type of school, when that might not actually be the cause, but naturally you will look for reasons and try and sort out a solution.

var12 Tue 20-Sep-16 11:59:15 Whilst your intentions are well meaning, you are preaching to the well informed. I did mention that I have 2 DCs, one of whom has been assessed.

Your DC1 is suspected of the same SEN as your DC2 has?

Also, sorry but I might be getting you confused. i thought you had said your children were at primary school still?

var12 Tue 20-Sep-16 12:11:01 Your DC1 is suspected of the same SEN as your DC2 has?

Certainly one aspect of it, yes.

var12 Tue 20-Sep-16 12:12:09 Also, sorry but I might be getting you confused. i thought you had said your children were at primary school still?

DC1 sat the 11 plus last year.

I am one of a presumably small number of people who experienced both comprehensive and grammar education.

When we moved area, I went from the top stream in an urban comp to a rural-ish grammar. I was expecting the work to be harder and the cohort to be higher achieving - in fact, the reverse was the case.

The grammar was OK, but I don't think I achieved any more there than I would have done at the comp.

After I did my O-Levels, the grammar system was abolished in that part of the country, and I did my A-Levels at a 6th form college, which again had no impact on my final (good) results.

My younger brother failed the 11+, went to the local secondary mod, had a miserable time and only got 2 GCSEs. That's not what I would want for anyone's dc.

Ds1 's SEN was first noticed as an oddity in year 5.
In year 6, it was clear that he needed help - a tutor I thought at first. That led to him being assessed and diagnosed.
Year 7 - we could all stop talking about his lack of skill in one area because we knew why but otherwise no difference.
year 8 - maybe it would help a bit if he started using some of the workarounds.
year 9 - the teachers were insisting on it (to a very reluctant DS)
year 10 - I can't imagine where we'd be now if we didn't understand what was happening, and be doing something to ameliorate the symptoms.

Mum - this is your call. A bit like with the comprehensive versus grammar conversation, everyone will have different experiences and there is no reason on earth why yours should be like mine. I doubt very much you want to hear from me about ti and I don't think i could tell you anything you don't know already. So, good luck and I hope it works out for your and your DC1.

Unfortunately as your ds is twice exceptionalvar then it is quite possible (depending on the area in which he stuggles) that he would fail the 11+. Little concession is made for dyslexia for example in the 11+, you have to pass English to pass overall. The grammar schools disuade you from applying. The peer group in a grammar school is not very tollerant of children who aren't good at everything. That is my experience anyway. So assuming that your son didn't pass because he is twice exceptional, how well would he get on in a secondary modern?

Ds1's teacher said that if he didn't pass the 11+ (should I decide to have him sit it), she'd have been staggered. He's not dyslexic - its the dyslexia family but not dyslexia.

However, that's not really what you meant is it? You meant what if he didn't get a grammar place and had to go to a secondary modern despite his IQ? The answer is yes, it would be awful because then he'd be far out on a limb with a huge gap between him and the next nearest.

But there wouldn't be would there, because as conclusively shown by studies grammar schools routinely admit the less able middle classes and not the highly bright working class, both now and when they were more common.

Noting this you'd probably find that the utopia you seek in a grammar doesn't exist, and that if your son is in the top 1% of maths he IS exceptional, you'd probably find that there won't be people in his percentile in most schools, even the grammars.

You meant what if he didn't get a grammar place and had to go to a secondary modern despite his IQ?... it would be awful...

So do you still think more grammars is a case of 'win/no-change'?

Yes, that is what I meant which is what we are probably facing as dd is being tested for dyslexia. She probably won't pass despite being very able and she will in some areas be out on a limb in a way she wouldn't with a different system. She will not have the opportunities her siblings will have, yet we cannot 'hold' them back just because she probably won't pass. She is lucky, the secondary moderns are outstanding, she has choices but she will be discriminated against in the 11+ in a way in which she is unlikely to be as disadvantaged again at GCSE, A level and degree if she gets that far. I teach at a University level and I know that if she can get that far she will be well supported and her disability need not hold her back until they pull all the funding etc . And before anyone asks, yes I do feel a bit bitter, but we will deal with the hand she has been dealt in life.

shouldwestayorshouldwego I am really sorry to read this.
TBH I do not know what the 11+ entails. Is it essay style questions or more like an IQ test? Is it English and maths or verbal and non verbal reasoning?

I do know that there are all sorts of accommodations for learning disabilities, and they are available from primary school onwards. You probably know them too, but just in case you don't: scribes, readers and 25% extra time may all be relevant to your DD.

As I obviously know nothing of what the 11+ entails, I am not going to say that those accommodations are available to SEN pupils sitting the 11+, but as they are / would be public exams, it would be surprising to find out they aren't.

One step at a time.. find out if she does have dyslexia first but if she does, then you may well find that the report recommendations encompass some of these things which will make her eligible if they do exist for those sitting the 11+.
Good luck.

yet we cannot 'hold' them back just because she probably won't pass.

I can see that's the right attitude to take, and I expect that I would do that too, but, wow it would be hard! I've always been at pains to not treat my Dc differently. Typically if one gets something, then the other gets something they like just as much. So, its all hypothetical, but if one were to pass the 11+ and the other probably wouldn't, I'd be breaking a habit of a lifetime and that would be tough.