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AIBU?

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Original poster

to ask would you send your eldest Dc to a grammar school?

908 replies

var12 · 10/09/2016 17:33

Hypothetical question... if there were grammar schools in your area and your DC1 was offered a place, would you accept it?

OP posts:
Original poster
var12 · 19/09/2016 17:27

multivac - no its because I have heard it all before, then lived the consequences.

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smallfox2002 · 19/09/2016 17:27

Possibly because she doesn't want to, or doesn't understand.

Again with the slights to the profession, I really hope you don't have this attitude in front of your kids.

You don't encourage perfectionism? Well you were hoping to get GCSE A* grades? Kiss that goodbye, cause basically you need to be perfect and lose under 10% of the available marks for the entire course to get one.

Practicing and re drafting is an important educational tool, it encourages mastery of the topic which is needed for exam success and for comfortably moving on for another.

Does your kid get 100% every exam? Are they finished the work quickly and get it 100% correct? Do they manage the extension material with ease too? Are they left idling in a corner?

Frankly teaching A levels and GCSEs I've rarely met the child who was so intelligent and able that they didn't need to develop their understanding of the course in some places, improve their exam technique and writing skills in others, and my classes get great exam results for a non selective comp. OFSTED and ALPS agree.

smallfox2002 · 19/09/2016 17:31

Oh and you still haven't made a valid case for grammar schools other than stamping your feet like a toddler and shouting I want it.

MumTryingHerBest · 19/09/2016 17:31

RunningLulu Mon 19-Sep-16 17:26:28 They both attend a non-selective private school which is close to home and offers the option of breakfast/dinner which is why I chose to send them there.

Pretty expensive breakfast/dinner Hmm

Original poster
var12 · 19/09/2016 17:34

Does your kid get 100% every exam? Yes - sometimes its as low as 97%, but usually 100
Are they finished the work quickly and get it 100% correct?Yes
Do they manage the extension material with ease too? Yes
Are they left idling in a corner? No - there is more and more extension work until time runs out

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RunningLulu · 19/09/2016 17:36

MumTryingHerBest - I can afford it.

Original poster
var12 · 19/09/2016 17:36

Oh and you still haven't made a valid case for grammar schools other than stamping your feet like a toddler and shouting I want it.
In this barrage? I thought I outlined my arguments in a thoughtful way when the thread started but now its just hostile questioning and have everything I write highlighted and sneered at.

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MumTryingHerBest · 19/09/2016 17:37

var12 Mon 19-Sep-16 17:27:43 multivac - no its because I have heard it all before, then lived the consequences.

Consequences? Your DC1 has only just started GCSEs. Do you have any idea of the expectations you are placing on your DC1 by suggesting that all the work they are doing is just far too easy. I think it would be wise to make these claims after they have sat the exam and are clutching a fist full of level 9s.

multivac · 19/09/2016 17:38

var - I think that's because you are refusing to engage with any argument that doesn't entirely support your wish for your child to be removed to a selective environment. And you're being rather unpleasant about teachers in the process. Just a thought!

sandyholme · 19/09/2016 17:39

'Oh and you still haven't made a valid case for grammar schools other than stamping your feet like a toddler and shouting I want it'.

That's a big enough case in itself , because Teresa May is backing on many parents wanting a grammar school education without really knowing why !

They just want grammar schools and they should have the option of having them because that what they believe a vote for the Conservatives will bring.

If it is just to stick two fingers up at the 'liberal' metropolitan's that is a good enough reason for me on its own !

sandyholme · 19/09/2016 17:40

Banking on

smallfox2002 · 19/09/2016 17:52

But you didn't formulate a decent reason, you've stated that you think that it is better for high achieving students to be in a situation where they can be "stretched" whilst at the same time rejecting the way that most grammar schools do that. You have also dismissed all of the evidence which shows that high performing children only do very marginally better at grammar schools, whilst the impact on the educational attainment of those that don't is far more damaging.

You haven't taken on board the fact that grammar schools don't cater for the most able children either, but in fact are the product of socio economics with places going to less bright middle class children.

Essentially your argument is bunkum, and has been proved so.

smallfox2002 · 19/09/2016 17:54

"IF it is just to stick two fingers up at the 'liberal' metropolitan's that is a good enough reason for me on its own !"

I do hope that's a joke. :(

Headofthehive55 · 19/09/2016 18:25

IT seemed to me that achieving slightly lower at the top end actually had greater consequence than dropping a lot at the lower end. I found there is much more room for wriggle at that lower end. I didn't expect to find that, but I did.

one A level grade at the top end can have radical consequences.

Headofthehive55 · 19/09/2016 18:27

What would a marginal improvement mean for me? Well only the tiniest improvement would have seen me studying the subject that I wanted to and having the career I wanted to. So yes tiny improvements matter.

Original poster
var12 · 19/09/2016 18:30

Grammar school places having a socio-economic bias.

Let me just consider that for a moment.

Is there any possibility that relatively there are few grammar school places atm? That parents do what they can to secure a place for their child, if they can. The wealthier the parent, the greater the ability to pay for tutors and other educational materials. Moreover primary schools do not prepare children for the 11+. So, everything depends on either an extremely high level of innate ability or being prepared for the 11+ outside of school at the parent's expense.
Are any of those statements incorrect? or is anything missing?
In that case, would it not be reasonable to assume that the socio-economic balance would shift as more grammar school places became available and primary school teachers start to prepare all the children in their class (including the poorer ones) for the exams. NB I said shift, not correct.

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smallfox2002 · 19/09/2016 18:31

The research showed that it was fine grading, not dropping a grade, so very small marginal differences. That's why the "kids perform better" mantra is rubbish.

multivac · 19/09/2016 18:35

var - sorry, missus, but there is historical evidence as well as current evidence, showing what happens when the top 25% everywhere is siphoned off into a different system. It's not pretty.

BertrandRussell · 19/09/2016 18:37

There will be no difference to anything but his ego if my ds gets As at GCSE rather than A*s.

The difference to his schoolmates lives between getting Ds and Cs is incalculable.

multivac · 19/09/2016 18:39

Plus, I don't want the last two years of every child's primary school experience to be "preparing" them for a test that's supposed to assess whether they are worth a certain kind of educational experience or not and would see the answer for 75% of them being "no". That's not what I want kids' schooling to be about. The stupid SATs are bad enough - and they aren't even supposed to have an impact on the child!

Headofthehive55 · 19/09/2016 18:47

Fine grading does matter. Otherwise the Olympic team would not believe small gains matter!

From seeing it in practise I am not convinced of the benefits of mixed ability education, largely though because of the impact it had on my less academic child however. Perhaps we were just unlucky several times over.

There are no grammar schools here, so the only reasonable alternative is private schools. I have come to the conclusion that a grammar system is better than the comp /only for the wealthy private schools system and if there were adequate coverage of grammar schools less parents would feel the need to buy their way out of the state system.

smallfox2002 · 19/09/2016 18:48

Var, evidently you're not aware of the findings of the Crowther report, which found in 1959 even when the test was prepared for in schools that middle class children were over represented in grammar schools.

It is actually worse now.

It didn't work then, it doesn't work now, its not going to work in the future. It just appeals to you because you think it will solve the issue that you have.

I'm sorry love but no grammar school place for your DC is going to take the chip from your shoulder.

multivac · 19/09/2016 18:50

To be honest, Head, I can't agree that if your less academic child couldn't cope with being in an educational environment with more capable children then the best answer for her would have been to remove all the more capable children from the building. What would that have been teaching her?

BertrandRussell · 19/09/2016 18:52

Comprehensive and mixed ability are not synonyms.

Original poster
var12 · 19/09/2016 18:52

less parents would feel the need to buy their way out of the state system.

but quite honestly, that would not suit those who pay for the state system.

Are there figures for how many children in this current school year, or the 2015/16 one that's just gone went to a fee paying school in the UK? It would be interesting to calculate how much the state saved by not having to provide teachers, materials, buildings and other resources to educate those children.

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