to ask would you send your eldest Dc to a grammar school?

[var12]

Hypothetical question... if there were grammar schools in your area and your DC1 was offered a place, would you accept it?

sort of .. the class teacher openly admitted it (I was shocked - I had not asked the question or even sought a meeting with her to discuss what provision there would be). Then the HT met with me later and was very sympathetic but didn't deny it or make any arrangements to rectify the situation. Instead he lent me a G&T book to work through with DS2 at home.

It was the second time something like this had happened. The first time had been two years earlier in November of year 2 when the class teacher had said the same thing. Actually she said that she had
"made a mistake giving Ds2 access to the full year's work. So, she had removed all his work and he'd have to do everything again. What am I supposed to do? Teach him year 3 work?! then what would he do in year 3?!" Those were exact words.

I told the HT at that primary school and she denied it, quite hotly. According to her, I was a liar. But she didn't do anything and sure enough Ds2 - age 6 - had the soul destroying job of slowly working through the exact same exercises that he'd completed rapidly the first time around.

So, I moved the children to a new school, but as you know there is a class size limit of 30 in KS1 and available places are like hen's teeth. So, I had to wait until the start of year 3 to find a school that was willing to increase the class size to 31 in order to accommodate Ds2.

Year 3 was fine, but then in year 4, the problem started again.

By now, I had lost heart, and I did not attempt to move the boys again.

Bertrand - what is Ll?

notanetter - the Y4 class teacher was very apologetic about it but she said the spread of abilities was too wide in the class and she had to focus on those who were working at a low level.

From the context, var, it's pretty clear the word in BR's post is "all", don't you think?

And as I say, sounds like you've been unlucky. Although your language is pretty emotive. "Soul destroying"? Seriously?

Many apologies- that typo made my post completely incomprehensible, didn't it? Allow me to repost.

"Var- what do all the other children who are at the same level as your son do?"

context - yes its "all" and you are right. I didn't see it through and I was thinking landlord, or something to do with local authority. Neither of which made any sense, so I asked. (I wasn't being sarcastic!)

Unfortunately, now that I understand your question, I can't answer it because I don't know. Same as Ds1, I guess??

Don't you ask him? Ask them? Ask the teacher?

Blimey, notanetter, you don't let much go by do you?! Soul destroying was the word in my head and i wrote it without weighing up how you might interpret it first.
I'm (ahem) supposed to be working, so i am sitting quickly typing this stuff in the hope I don't get caught!

I have to go..

let me just say this:
I know I've been unlucky. I know teachers as friends. I come from generations of teachers. I know that no one goes to teaching college thinking its just a job with low pay but good holidays.
I realise that teachers have to prioritise. I know some become disenchanted and give up. Others become disenchanted and keep going. Then there are some who many to maintain a love of teaching and keep going. I'm not a fan of that year 2 teacher, but I've no issue with the year 4 one. I like and admire the second HT but I despise the first. I am bit perplexed at the dept head at secondary.
I think of teachers as individuals / real people. They are not some sort of amorphous block.
Its the system that I blame for the failings, not the teachers (except that year 2 one!). I don't know what grammar schools are like having never been to one, but it feels like it would reduce the size of certain problems that I've experienced. However, i don't think they would magically solve everything.
Sorry, but I really must go...

I do think you can be unlucky with schools and teachers and I agree it's wrong to blame the system in those cases. However I think it should be recognised that the comp system is not a perfect system and there are disadvantages.

In reality if one person is experiencing a school, comprehensive that has all the extra curricular activities, taught in ability groupings, then I can see that they might be happy with the situation. Unfortunately comprehensive education doesn't always work like that in practise. Some of us experience mixed ability groupings, limited extra curricular and on occasion have been singled out in a degrogatory manner due to our ability or demographic.

I possibly was not the only one who would deliberately get questions wrong on tests so as not to stand out. My own DD was called quite frankly an unpleasant name as a matter of course, and was intended as such.

I'm not denying anyone else's experience - absolutely not. And I'm not arguing for the status quo. I could very easily be someone in the 'I'd rather I didn't have to, but I've sent my kids to the grammar' camp (assuming I could somehow get it past Mr Not)... but as it happens, we've ended up with a school on our doorstep that offers the kind of education I'd like to see much more widely available. So I like to share it as an alternative to selection, division, segregation.

var12 Tue 20-Sep-16 10:32:46 Unfortunately, now that I understand your question, I can't answer it because I don't know. Same as Ds1, I guess??

So you did loads and loads of research into the problem, yet never once thought to speak to other parents in the same situation (except on the MN G&T forum), teachers or even your DC?

Have you asked your DCs teacher if she can just provide G&T worksheets off the internet (or perhaps you can provide them for the school to use). That's what the G&T co-ordinator did at my DCs school. The children were put into groups of two/three to work through the various maths problems which is what my DC particularly enjoyed.

Give it a rest, MumTryingHerBest! I don't stand outside the school gates with a clipboard ready to quiz other parents and children who are not my own. Also, I know better than to ask the school for info on their arrangements for a child who is not my own.

But how would you approach that. If you have time, role play the approach to the school or the other parent (one of whom I know only by sight and the other who is lovely but I haven't seen for two years).

and I can't exactly go direct to the teacher now that I've spoken to the head of dept, who is her line manager, and been left in no doubt what his departmental policy is.

Do you live in some sort of parallel universe where noone ever gets really hostile if you keep pestering them to do things that they've already refused?

Headof...

Do you ever imagine that you or your DD might have had problems at a grammar too? As I said they are not a cure all panacea, bullying and unpleasantness exist too.

Var: "but it feels like it would reduce the size of certain problems that I've experienced." I don't think you'd find that, classes are still taught as classes, exams are very heavily taught to, some stretching does go on but in a huge amount of cases it is with the early entry option you have said you don't like. I feel like wherever you wouldn't be good enough.

I appreciate the suggestions, but really I have scoured the internet for suggestions over years and I've wracked my brains. I really think i have tried everything, but the only thing that was useful was the advice I got about how to deal with perfectionism.

Not true. You have posted about this for many years on Gifted and Talented and ignored responses (from those who have experience with gifted mathematicians) about what you could actually do.

You also choose to condemn all comprehensive education as not providing for very able children, and yet give anecdotes which indicate that your DC's school has many problems beyond provision for able children.

I sent my DC to a selective high achieving school. It didn't provide well for my DC. But it also didn't deal well with bullying, didn't teach some subjects well (high grades were achieved by tutoring), didn't pick up on SEN etc etc. I cannot conclude from my experience that all selective schools would be like this, because this was not a good selective school.

I've never experienced hostility from my sons' schools or teachers. And I am very much that parent, too. Funnily enough, I've always found that they want the same things for the children in their care as I do.

Headofthehive55 Tue 20-Sep-16 10:42:50 However I think it should be recognised that the comp system is not a perfect system and there are disadvantages.

The exact same can be said of the Grammar system.

Some of us experience mixed ability groupings, limited extra curricular and on occasion have been singled out in a degrogatory manner due to our ability or demographic.

The exact same can be said of the Grammar system. You are aware of just how much of movement there is at 6th form?

I possibly was not the only one who would deliberately get questions wrong on tests so as not to stand out. My own DD was called quite frankly an unpleasant name as a matter of course, and was intended as such.

You are aware bullying goes on in Grammar schools too?

smallfox2002 - maybe. I was just thinking that of course schools must keep the children safe and teach to the exams as their first two priorities. However, if there is any time left over, which there would be a higher chance of with a higher average IQ, then couldn't the teacher use it to teach something outside of the curriculum?
Doing exams early is all well and good, but I think you miss something by arriving at university early. There was a girl I knew in my first year at university was was 16 and I know she felt gauche and unhappy next to all the sophisticated 18 year olds! (yes I know 18 year olds aren't sophisticated to anyone except 16 year olds.) I went to uni at 17 and that was bad enough, but at least I was only one year younger.

At the very least, it would reduce the opportunity for cover lessons and slowing the class down further by moving people into the top set who didn't really have the ability to be there and slowed the class down.

notanetter - of course they want the best for all children. But they also want to meet their targets and go home at night with some energy left for their personal lives.

I try to be reasonable and considerate in what i ask of teachers. I also try to think of solutions, not just bring them problems. Saying that, I fell out big time with that first HT (and I still think i was 100% right).

Doing maths exams early doesn't automatically lead to 'arriving at university early'!

You are 'reasonable and considerate', yet met with hostility?

You just don't want answers, do you?

"However, if there is any time left over, which there would be a higher chance of with a higher average IQ, then couldn't the teacher use it to teach something outside of the curriculum?"

But the teacher is teaching a class, not one or two students who are the most able, even in a fantastic set 1 with all A -A* predictions you are going to find that some people need more help understanding the content than others and therefore take more of the time up. Extending a child is fine, changing the entire way a group are taught for the benefit of one is not.

In the vast majority of grammar schools what you are talking about doesn't happen, because what you are wanting is a bespoke education for your son's very particular abilities.

You're looking for that panacea, you won't find one.

We have grammars here, and the big problem is that because the top 20% are creamed off, the local comp has dreadful results and a terrible reputation, so it's no wonder people are desperate for their kids to get into grammar. Having said that I think the pressure of a grammar would be bad for my daughter even if she did pass, so we are looking at a comp further away for her.