I'm so sorry it's about disabled bus seats

[YourNewspaperIsShit]

But It's absolutely not the normal "having a dig" thread and if I wasn't torturing myself about the situation I promise I wouldn't post it.

So I don't drip feed: I'm autistic and have an invisible physical disability.

The bus to DD's nursery was just a small one on this occasion and there was one wheelchair/disabled seat. The front seats have 'elderly' signs on and there's a sign on the wheelchair seat saying something like "This seat is for wheelchair users. Small prams and buggies may use this seat but must move if a wheelchair user needs access". Totally acceptable, I have no dispute.

So basically what happened was I got on to pick DD up from nursery, normally we go in the car but only DP drives and he was called to work. I have 6 month old DS in his pram (Silver Cross Wayfarer if it's relevant coz I can't fold it). I was in a lot of pain that day or I would have used his sling, i physically couldn't do it. In fact I kind of lean on the pram like a zimmer frame IYSWIM.

Pay for my ticket, park pram in the space and sit in the disabled seat. Every other seat on the bus is taken. Elderly people in the front seats. Halfway through the journey we reach a bus station and a lady in a wheelchair is in the queue, bus driver tells me to get off. Normally I'd 100% do this but I wouldn't have made DD's pick up.... She is only 4 so can't exactly wait another 30mins for the next bus.

I start having a panic attack with the situation and kind of splutter out that I really need to catch the bus. The absolutely lovely lady in the wheelchair says she's only taking her shopping home and will wait for the next bus.

Bus driver, assuming I guess that I'm just a snotty young entitled mother demanding the seat, continues to tell me to get off the bus. I start to cry.

I manage to choke out that I'm also disabled and get told "aye of course you are love, what kind of person takes a seat from someone in a wheelchair". It then felt like he was pitting us off one another, like some awful 'disability contest' saying things like "go on then what have you got, is it worse?"

The lady eventually gets through to him that she really isn't in a rush and goes out of the station so he can't just sit and wait for her. He reluctantly drives off with a shitty attitude and a grunt

I don't know what I'd have done without her lovely calm demeanor. I'm still absolutely mortified that I didn't get off the bus though, if it wasn't for DD there's no way I'd have stayed on.

Totally prepared to hear I WBU, especially for starting a bus seat thread. But I can't stop thinking about it and have noone to discuss with IRL

In hindsight I would have caught an earlier bus but usually they have big ones with 3 disabled/pram seats so I didn't think.

So Charleston you said maybe your autism means you can't and Okay, maybe not quietly, but she could have removed herself so you're contradicting your own stupid arguments where you ignore the OP has disabilities and couldn't simply exit the bus quickly. Also why should she have to?? As has been said multiple times she has disabilities and needed the space. Therefore no it wasnt unfortunately accessible to the lady in the wheelchair on this occassion as another disabled person was using it. And I'll repeat myself again the bus driver shouldn't have had an impromptu competition to see who was 'most disabled.' How humiliating!

OP please don't feel bad about this anymore Unfortunately there are always some insensitive ignorant people around try not to let them cloud your judgement and doubt yourself.

I can see this from all sides here. You need to man up and be able to tell people calmly and politely that you have a disability too, and not all disabilities are visible.

But you also can't go around taking up all the space in a bus with a non-collapsible pram! Sorry, but even if you had to pick up your dd at a certain time, you don't know that the lady in the wheelchair didn't have an urgent appt too. Your needs don't trump hers.

But the bus driver was beyond rude. Perhaps he's fed up with entitled twats pretending they have a disability (not you, OP!).

Either way, he needs some training on how to talk to customers and deal with tricky situations.

Hope you are in less pain today.

The wheelchair user or carer can decide if they can wait but there should not be any pressure put on them to do so. The problem is in a lot of cases there will be.
I don't take my son on buses and trains because I cannot face pram battles. It is difficult enough taking him out without that on top.

Oh ffs. Telling someone with autism they need to just man up and learn to deal with social situations better instantly now?? So if someone told a wheelchair user to man up and walk would that be acceptable?

Mangoes
Therefore no it wasnt unfortunately accessible to the lady in the wheelchair on this occassion as another disabled person was using it.

This is exactly my point, the seat was not accessible. But the OP insists it was.

I am grown up enough to think about a situation and realise and admit that my initial position was partially or completely wrong. In this case, I believe the seat was not accessible, but concede that maybe this would not be so clear to the OP because of (assumed) ASD.

The OP has clearly stated she suffers with mobility problems and chronic pain. She has also repeated the fact that she chose a solid and large pram to double up as a walking aid. I'm not quite so immobile I can't fold a pushchair or need it to walk (although it would be difficult and painful to fold and it was helpful to lean on the pushchair at times) but I did severely limit my life because of access issues such as these. Do we really want disabled parents to avoid going out and living a full life because services are hard to access and people are judgemental about invisible disabilities?

The OP does not have to provide a detail medical explanation for her disabilities. Please just accept she had pain and mobility issues if she says so. I've spent some time with other people in chronic pain and all would end up in more pain if they had to stand on a bus, however, sat down we all looked totally normal.

Fair enough Charleston it was good of you to own up to that!

I'm not asking or expecting her to. But I can't make a judgement without that information, and even if she gave it I still can't make a judgement. Some people think they are dying of bubonic plague with little more than a common cold. Some people hide their pain so much (of course they shouldn't have to) the extent of their condition isn't known. I am not discussing whether or not she should have got off the bus because I can't.
She felt she should stay on and she did. I've nothing to say against that.

But I am challenging her assertion that the seat was available to the lady in the wheelchair. The OP had made it clear she didn't want to give up the seat, so how was it accessible?

Mangoes and OP - so sorry. I didn't see the bit in your op about having autism. Perhaps 'man up' was the wrong phrase to use.

But I stand by my point: you do need to be able to tell people calmly and clearly about your disability. How about getting your OH or a friend to help you write something on a piece of paper that you could photocopy and hand over to people in situations like these when you feel you can't explain yourself clearly?

'I have autism and xxx disability. I am in constant pain and find it hard to xxx. My disability may not be visible but it is still real. Thank you.'

Or something like that?

Thanks cocktail yeah it was probably just an unfortunate turn of phrase but agree that something like a card explaining about invisible disabilities would be ideal. You can actually get these and it would save either a person with autism or adult/carer of person with autism from getting more upset in an already stressful situation.

That should have said *parent/carer of person with autism. Don't think I've had enough coffee yet!

I think that saying the OP has a right to the space because she has a disability is not strictly correct. The OP has a right to a seat because of her disability, but not the wheelchair space. Her baby doesn't have a disability, and it is the baby taking up the space. The bus driver has probably read the article about the woman suing for the bus driver not letting her on and panicked, thinking he'll be next.

But realistically, every seat on a bus should be foldable. No one should be forced to sit in their wheelchair on the side of the road because of lack of access. What if two people in wheelchairs wanted to travel together?

The websites for transport providers and authorities have instructions for getting an assistance card. If you google accessibility on buses it will bring up a lot of the providers and the relevant links.
Also, check with your local authority and regional transport authority if you are entitled to a free or concession art bus pass - using this when getting on also alerts the driver you need extra assistance.

Where I live the wheelchair spaces are not disabled spaces- they clearly state "reserved for a wheelchair user". While the bus driver was rude and it sounds like a horrible situation for you op . The bus company legally have to have a wheelchair space available. It's possible the bus drive was worried he could be in trouble if the lady in the wheelchair was to complain there was no wheelchair space available. (Not excusing his rudeness)

Her baby doesn't have a disability, and it is the baby taking up the space

WRONG. It's the pram taking up the space and she needs to use this as a mobility aid. How many times does this need to be said before people grasp it. facepalm

I think that one if the problems is the bus layouts.

I have been on double decker buses where you can get 3 standard sized prams on next to each other (or a wheelchair & pram) on easily and they don't have the bar separating the wheelchair area and the first seats so that you can sit down and hold onto your pram or if you have a shopping trolley.

I have seen other double decker buses so poorly designed, that it is impossible to get a pram from the front door to the wheelchair area due to random poles and/or areas where you can only either get a wheelchair or a pram in. I've even seen one with so little space, if you were in a wheelchair, you'd have to get on the bus in reverse as there is no space to turn around on the bus.

I wish that there were proper regulations to standardised good bus layouts on all buses to solve many of these problems.

After banging on at length about wheelchair spaces being disability spaces I now accept as explained by other posters that on buses they are marked as wheelchair spaces.
I thnk this thread illustrates really well the misunderstandings and confusion and therefore frustration and anger about these spaces.
I've learnt a bit more again thanks to MN.
Samcro I totally get your frustration. Some people face this everyday and others only rarely so they get caught out and might make the wrong decision in the moment and then reflect on it later.

The bus driver needs educating about disabilities. I think it would be useful if there was a nation wide scheme where doctors could issue cards to those with a disability that they could show if challenged without have to go into any detail about personal circumstances

In this case that wouldn't make any difference since he was right, the space was for a wheelchair and it was being used by the buggy. The OP's need for a disabled access seat was a separate matter.
He was doing what he's been told to do in asking OP to remove the buggy and let the wheelchair on. He shouldn't have been such an arse about it but he wasn't wrong.

While it might be correct that the rules give wheelchair users priority for wheelchair spaces, this discriminates against people with hidden disabilities affecting mobility.

So do people think the OP needs to get off the bus, wait in considerable pain (which she may not be able to do), or avoid public transport altogether until the rules get changed? Or should we all perhaps show compassion and understanding towards all disabled people, and allow some sensible degree of flexibility.

The wheelchair user would have had to wait for the next bus if the OP was in a wheelchair. Given the inadequate provision of wheelchair spaces, even if the rules are always followed, this would sometimes be the case.

I'm astonished by the number of people who think the wheelchair user should have priority in this case

I'm astonished that so many people are confused that a space specifically for wheelchairs, NOT for disabled people in general, is for people in wheelchairs. It's not a difficult concept.
If you want to talk about general disability access that is a different discussion, but the bus must have a space reserved for a wheelchair, with a wheelchair ALWAYS to be given priority. IT is the law, one very hard fought for by action groups.

Interestingly, Transport for London is about to trial a scheme aimed at helping those with hidden disabilities (tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2016/august/please-offer-me-a-seat---new-badge-created-for-those-less-able-to-stand) so thankfully awareness is beginning to increase.

She has probably had a lifetime of trying to avoid making a fuss and conceding her rights to avoid making others uncomfortable. It's not that she didn't want the space. Everyone should be able to see that.
Or maybe your autism means you can't
I suspect that the OP has had a lifetime of experiencing exactly that.
It's a common experience shared by pretty much every disabled person on the planet, feeling like their disability is an inconvenience to other people.

Your needs don't trump hers.
The wheelchair user felt otherwise on that specific occasion.
That doesn't change the general rule, but there ARE exceptions.
There was a story a while back about a boy with cerebral palsy who used a kind of bike as a mobility aid and the bus driver refused to let him on the bus with it. It's not a wheelchair but it should have been treated as one. And there are times when a pushchair should be treated as a wheelchair.

And there are times when a pushchair should be treated as a wheelchair

If the rule was wheelchair priority but sometimes a pushchair priority, then you know that soon it would always be taken by a pushchair, and people in wheelchairs would be back to the days of never getting on buses. Assholes would just stand there with the buggy, not giving a shit about wheelchairs needing the space.

It's the law, folks. It's not a whim.

The problem is that provision for disabled people is utterly inadequate. There should be enough space to meet the needs of both women.

Approximately 20% of the population are disabled. So if we want equality then buses need to be designed in a way that assumes 20% of passengers are disabled. 1 wheelchair space and 4 priority seats just doesn't cut the mustard.

But its not as easy as that. Buses have limited space and people with hidden disabilities look just the same as people without but who won't give up their seat to anyone. Unless you want to make everyone wear a badge or carry a card saying why they need a seat, and employ someone to stand on every bus reading them and allocating seats, you have to rely on some basic hard rules and the good nature of most people.