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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think the breast is best strategy is all wrong

449 replies

SheepOrWine · 26/08/2016 18:20

Just back from the health visitor clinic where I was at in front of an entire wall (no exaggeration) telling me why breast is best. Apparently for one young woman it was the best decision she EVER made. This morning I read about another study which "proves" that breast is best (presumably because the many, many existing studies on this are not enough and they needed another one?) At my NHS antenatal breastfeeding class, more than half of the allocated time was dedicated to the benefits of breastfeeding.

Has anyone ever been persuaded to breastfeed by a poster or a news article? Is there anyone out there who seriously has not yet heard the "breast is best" message? Does the NHS just think women are a bit stupid but if you tell them to do something enough times they will do it?

Wouldn't this money be better spent on helping those women who want to breastfeed to do so successfully? Three months ago I was on a postnatal ward with DD where I received conflicting and often incorrect breastfeeding advice. Every time I buzzed for support a frazzled looking HCA or midwife would come and glance at the latch say "yeah that's fine" and walk off. I asked four times to see the breastfeeding advisor but she never arrived. I was discharged without anyone observing a feed.

8 weeks on I gave up breastfeeding as I just had enough of all the various problems I was having with it and for which I was completely unprepared. Before I had DD the posters were useless as like most women, I already knew I wanted to try to breastfeed. And now, post-breastfeeding, all these posters do is just make me feel guilty. What a waste of money.

OP posts:
TheDowagerCuntess · 27/08/2016 23:21

I wonder why humans need help with it - I mean, even in societies where it's normal, and part and parcel of life, there's still an expectation that extended family members will help new Mums with breastfeeding. My Mum died before DC were born - she breastfed us in the 70s, so I expect she'd have been invaluable had she still been around.

But why do humans need so much help with it? Other mammals just seem to crack on, and there's a great deal less faff. Baby pops out, baby latches on, baby feeds. Why and where are we going so wrong?

It's such a basic, fundamental thing that we've been doing since the dawn of time, and yet here we are, making a complete show of it.

BertieBotts · 27/08/2016 23:27

It's not about relying on others to figure it out for them. There are multi-level barriers to breastfeeding in modern UK culture.

In past generations, long back, we would have had mothers, sisters, aunts, neighbours and grandmothers all who would have breastfed (or 95% of who would have breastfed) and they would have been around to give advice and support.

Most babies were breastfed and people had large families so people saw breastfeeding happening. We know from research that women who grew up with breastfeeding or whose family members breastfed are more likely to be successful at breastfeeding themselves. This suggests that there are factors to breastfeeding success which are not reliant on a google search or reading a book or knowing something. It's something innate that you pick up in childhood, and/or the fact of having family and friends around you who support and understand breastfeeding, rather than challenging it.

We live in a bottle feeding culture. Most people are more familiar with bottle feeding than breastfeeding. When we hold a baby in our arms we tend to naturally hold them on their backs with their tummies facing up. For successful latching you need to hold a baby with their tummy facing you. But that's not something you'd think to google and despite doing lots of research myself before birth it was something I had to be shown. Of course, once you do it and think about it, it's clear that a baby can't drink while turning their head to the side, but nobody thinks about drinking in that much detail.

When most of your family has bottle fed and they are surrounding you after the birth of your child with love and support you do not google every piece of advice they give you. When your aunt, who's brought up 4 children, shows you a winding technique or something that makes your baby laugh, and you copy it and it works you don't then google to check that it's the correct up to date scientific method. Likewise when your mum says something like "He can't be hungry again; you've just fed him. Let's try this instead." You're not likely to hop onto your laptop immediately and fact check. You'll take it as a given that her advice is sound because, after all, she raised you just fine. Why should breastfeeding need extra research? No other aspect of baby care needs fact checking. If you're not aware of the fact that older generations may have been given false information about breastfeeding you're not likely to check up on it unless it feels wrong to you. No new parent is an expert with babies, we all seek help and advice from others whether that is friends, family, books, internet or medical professionals. Most people use a combination but some people tend to lean more to real people and others tend to lean more to theoretical information.

Additionally, when you're in hospital you might not have access to books and the internet. (I got no 3G signal last time I was in hospital, so even having a smartphone didn't help). You're exhausted from birth, probably in pain, perhaps traumatised or shocked and it's very overwhelming. Again, even as a person myself who had done a lot of prior research I suddenly felt like I had forgotten everything and I didn't know what to do. A picture in a book (or a leaflet which is what I was given) is really useless when you're faced with an actual squirming, also shocked, also exhausted, also overwhelmed newborn who's just experiencing things like light and air currents and unmuffled sound and being picked up and wearing clothes for the first time. You're scared you might hurt or break them and they don't naturally latch like the book says. I think most women need somebody to sit with them and get them calmly through it the first time, perhaps for several times after that. As Golden pointed out, the stuff about the golden hour after birth and the breast crawl is fantastic - but not possible under the time constraints in an NHS hospital. So you're not likely to have that "best standard" start, and it's somewhat of a lottery whether you'll get somebody who can sit with you and calmly help you (and this is if you have a baby who will latch and no further issues) or whether you'll get somebody harrassed, pushed for time who will thrust a leaflet at you or just tell you patronisingly to "Keep trying, you'll get there!" with no actual help. If the baby doesn't latch easily, again it's a lottery, you might get somebody who has the time, patience AND expertise to gently coax them to do so but the three things are in short supply, and you'd be lucky to find all three. (I was lucky; I had a baby who latched easily and a midwife who had time and expertise.) If you're unlucky you'll get bad advice or "help" which is actually invasive and counterproductive, causing more issues.

This does not even go into situations which make establishing breastfeeding even more difficult. Perhaps the mother and baby were separated due to difficulties at birth, infection, c-section recovery, etc. Perhaps the baby was very sleepy due to pain relief the mother had during labour. Possibly the baby was born early, late, low birth weight, jaundiced, other factors that mean it's more critical to establish feeding quickly. This can drain the time and patience of HCPs and up their urgency which leads to anxiety on the part of the mother. I'm not even going into rare cases, these are all fairly common occurrences.

You can't differentiate good advice from bad at that point, and nor should you have to. Can you not see what a huge task that is to put onto somebody?

Then lastly even if somebody does want to question advice from their family or friends, from health care professionals, or general assumptions that they hold (which might not even be conscious beliefs, so I'm not sure where you'd start with researching that) there is an ocean of "advice" relating to breastfeeding on the internet, there are several books, all varying in their usefulness. It takes a long time to search through all of these and understand what is correct and what is false. You can't tell at first glance which websites are trustworthy and which are promoting bad information in good faith. You claim that bleeding nipples are "easily remedied with a google search" but actually while most websites emphasise the need to seek support many of them are cluttered with useless suggestions like "Apply a cold pack before nursing to numb the area" or "Use an antibacterial ointment" "Pump and bottle feed for a day" but also "Nurse more frequently, at least every 2 hours" - perhaps all suggestions with merit in certain situations, but not particularly helpful as an assortment, and again, confusing and overwhelming - it is a big ask to expect a complete beginner to be able to work out which exact solution is useful in her particular situation, whether it's a permanent or temporary solution, and what to do next if it's temporary. You wouldn't get this with anything else. Books can be even worse - with many bestselling babycare books containing terrible advice about breastfeeding which is just incorrect.

Bad advice - whether from a hurried HCP, well-meaning family member, misunderstood website, misinforming book, taken early and followed in good faith can lead to further problems which then gets you on a downhill path where the lower you get the more problems you encounter which makes it harder and harder to continue. It's possible to come back from that but only if you recognise you're on it to begin with, and/or only if you find the right path back up, which might happen by luck or might take some identifying. Which, again, is expecting a huge amount from a person who is a complete beginner to all this and probably wasn't expecting to need a PHD in it before they started, especially as the bumf you get given in pregnancy just talks about how natural and healthy and bonding and wonderful it is.

And did I mention you are doing this on NO sleep. With hormones crashing around. With a painfully contracting womb. With stitches. Perhaps with reduced mobility. Possibly with PND. Likely (if you're having issues breastfeeding) with shredded nipples, which you don't especially want to talk to strangers about.

Yeah, sorry, but in no way is a woman struggling with breastfeeding lazy, entitled or any of it. If you can't see any of this scenario as being a human who just wants some help and a person they can trust, then I wonder about your empathy, because I think it's a horrendous situation to put women in and I find it totally shocking. Put the mechanics of breastfeeding in the national curriculum along with the rest of human reproduction, give midwives and health visitors a decent grounding in realistic BF support, not "best case only" BF support, allow voluntary organisations to support in hospitals, whatever, it doesn't have to be expensive or complicated. Women should not be expected to find this information out for themselves.

BertieBotts · 27/08/2016 23:32

Dowager - a similar question was asked on reddit the other day, so I copied and pasted this answer for you.

"Humans are born with the innate knowledge and ability to survive as is necessary for a baby. We're born with a suckling instinct, for example, to latch onto nipples and draw food. We also have all the autonomic reflexes already, such as ticklishness, breathing, heart rate regulation, etc. These are common to all mammals, of which we are a member.

This is because primates are social animals; we are born into a group collective (a family unit) and predictably have a social group to learn from. You have to remember that when it comes to survival, humans know everything they need to know right when they're born, because all that is required of them is autonomic in nature (breathing, heart rate, feeding, urinating, defecating, sleeping, waking), and we only require more complicated systems when we've grown. Humans as a whole are very weak when they're first born, and require a great deal of security for quite a long time, compared to other animals. This is likely because we devote such a great percentage of the nutrients we ingest in order to develop our brains, as opposed to most other animals needing only to develop their bodies. This is likely why parents have an overwhelming emotional bond with their children.

Some animals are not social, and are therefore unable to learn from others of their species, and so they're born with (or learn shortly after birth) more complex instincts."

Breadwidow · 27/08/2016 23:38

Completely agree chicken

Dowager: I think its because human babies are born premature compared to other mamas due to our big brains and relatively small pelvises, if we gave birth to babies as mature as other mammals we'd give birth to a toddler sized baby, as that's physically impossible we give birth to 'premature' babies who need a lot more mothering early on (fourth trimester etc) & therefore I think human survival has depended on us having society (society with all its support is an essential part of our evolution as it supports breastfeeding in same way as it helps child birth - other mammals give birth so easily compared to humans where a big head makes it harder)

varvara · 27/08/2016 23:53

Haven't read the thread, but yes I agree with your OP. I had no intention if not at least trying to breastfeed - and in the end I did get on OK with it and managed to keep it up for a year. But I thought of giving up so many times in the early days - the pain and the difficulty, the lack of support and conflicting advice; at a time when you're feeling all over the place anyway, struggling to breastfeed can feel like the final straw.

I found that it just clicked for me in the end, but that took ages, and the majority of people who give up do so in the first fortnight. And I totally understand why.

To be honest I think this is linked to the wider issue of post-natal care - where I gave birth it was awful, and I felt like I was being a nuisance for asking for help with anything, including breastfeeding.

Zoolander · 28/08/2016 00:14

I think something needs to change. It might be a cultural thing as much as any kind of support or campaigning.

I think there is some pressure on women after giving birth to get back to normal, dressed, tidy house, out and about, passing the baby around relatives.

I could have done with just taking to bed for a month with the baby.

Asuitablemum · 28/08/2016 01:06

I would imagine that they have money behind both advertising and bf support but the latter is just harder to land. Probably partly because as most people formula feed, lots of the professionals are probably not entirely pro bf themselves. And also however many people you put in, the more urgent/critical jobs will tend to take precedence over teaching skills in a hospital setting. I think both support and the education piece are important.

TheDowagerCuntess · 28/08/2016 01:08

Thanks Bertie and BreadWidow - yes, the fact that humans are born prematurely compared with other mammals is an obvious one, in hindsight. Great posts, Bertie.

AllegraAlmond · 28/08/2016 08:04

im just not convinced, sorry. In my culture this just doesn't happen, BF is usually always successful. Ignorance is no exscuse why can't women look into BF beforehand, as they look into other things regarding raising a baby. I joined a support group before DS was born as I had no family to help, and got first hand examples and stories of BF mothers. The reality is english culture is lazy and people don't want to take responsibility or try any harder than they should do. And obviously your baby would have to face you to feed, if you think your baby would be on their back to BF then that is stupid sorry you shouldn't have to be told that

Advicepls7080 · 28/08/2016 08:12

But it's not always successful.

Batteriesallgone · 28/08/2016 08:18

Allegra ok we get it. We are stupid and selfish and lazy.

I have a degree and a raft of postgraduate qualifications. I have lived in multiple cities to further my prospects. I have worked on government projects covered by the official secrets act. I have spent my spare time volunteering with vulnerable elderly people.

But yeah whatever I'm just stupid and lazy. Thanks for the reality check. Most helpful.

CecilyP · 28/08/2016 08:19

Sorry, Allegra, your post makes no sense to me. If breastfeeding is always so successful in your culture, why did you anticipate that it would be so problematic that you felt compelled to join a support group before your baby was even born?

2StripedSocks · 28/08/2016 08:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BertieBotts · 28/08/2016 08:28

I just did a massive post Allegra explaining the problems in British culture WRT breastfeeding.

It IS cultural. It's nothing to do with laziness. There's only so much you can learn about BF from a book.

Advicepls7080 · 28/08/2016 08:33

Allegra can you please explain how I should have tried harder to produce any milk to breastfeed? Should I have left my child to starve willing my body to produce milk? No.
You might think English are lazy but you're very ignorant.

BertieBotts · 28/08/2016 08:42

Actually I've just realised Allegra did address points in my post so, OK, never mind. I think you are either extremely ignorant and unempathetic or a troll. Biscuit

Bigfam · 28/08/2016 08:43

allergra please explain to me how you could possibly label people lazy when they encounter such horrendous problems that test their health and sanity?

If I had not listened to my gp and tried to continue breastfeeding I could well have avoided the horrific breast abscess I suffered and weeks of treatment. I wasn't lazy, I tried my hardest to bf, but found it rather difficult when I had to visit the nurse every day to re-dress the gaping wound in my breast!

totalrecall1 · 28/08/2016 08:53

I havent' read the whole post but I thoroughly agree. With my first child there was a session by the HV on the pro's and con's of BF and Bottle Feeding. She listed absolutely no pro's for Bottle Feeding, which of course there are some. It was unhelpful and makes mothers who can't BF feel guilty, I clearly remember her saying the formula was made of fish eyes (don't know if this is true). Whilst BF is undoubtedly better, making formula sound like the option of only a terrible person is not right or fair. I tried BF with all my 3. It was so bloody painful I couldn't do it. They have now all been BF. They are healthy, happy and intelligent. They haven't suffered because of it. The message should be if you are able to BF great, that's best for baby, but if you can't don't worry because your children won't suffer as a result.

LaurieMarlow · 28/08/2016 09:06

Allegra, it's your own ignorance coming through strongly for me.

So you can't see that in a different culture, with radically different expectations and norms, women find it harder to establish breastfeeding?

That when midwives knowledge is not up to scratch, support is very patchy, basic things like tongue tie not dealt with, and you don't have an extended family network of breast feeders to call upon. Not to mention the expectations to run a home and keep the show on the road at the same time. You can't see these factors make bf success much less likely?

If so you're deficient in either intelligence or empathy - possibly both.

Writerwannabe83 · 28/08/2016 09:18

I work with new moms, helping them to breast feed and the general ignorance around breast feeding is astonishing.

One mom had sought out advice from a specialist before baby was born in order to prepare herself for what was to come and she was ridiculed for it.

New moms who desperately want to breastfeed and are upset because it's not working out are ridiculed.

Women who won't just "give formula" are ridiculed.

Women who breast feed babies wth teeth are ridiculed and the attitude to breast feeding a toddler is awful.

Women who want to breast feed but are struggling, are upset and need support are labelled as precious, demanding, martyrs etc.

My job is very draining when I'm faced with this most days.

Thankfully I do come across a lot of babies/infants/toddlers who are breast fed in my job so I know that it's still being done successfully out there.

In my previous job the breast feeding rates at birth were 88%, dropping down to 20% at 6 weeks of age and then dropping to 1% at 6 months of age. There's a reason why those statistics are so poor and it certainly isn't because women are "lazy" it's because the support just isn't there.

My mom, my auntie and my nan were all very negative about my choice to breastfeed and would continually make comments to put me down but thankfully I had fantastic support from others that enabled me to keep going.

Formula feeding is definitely the norm now and I think it has to be questioned why and acted upon. Women need support to breast feed and without it I'm sure breast feeding rates will continue to drop.

BorisMcBoakface · 28/08/2016 09:47

Couldn't agree more OP. I was shocked by my experience of bf and the NHS. 100 per cent propaganda and pressure, zero per cent actual support.

It's also true, though, that for some of us, despite desperately wanting to and even with all the support in the world, bf just is never going to work. For those people, the NHS emotive poster campaign approach is actually harmful, I'd argue.

Fortybingowings · 28/08/2016 09:57

Allegra 😂😂😂😂. I'm so lazy I'm surprised I even get up in the morning to run round after twin toddlers, my husband, do two jobs and all the housework. Yes like batteriesallgone - I'm a regular slobby shirker. It's a bloody wonder I ever got my degree and postgrad qualifications. A bloody miracle no less. Hey- I even managed to wash and sterilise and prepare around 16-20 bottles daily at the start.

Cellardoor23 · 28/08/2016 10:14

botis I agree about the poster. I felt like I was a bad mum because I couldn't BF for longer. The HV was worried about me at one point and even mentioned it to my gp.

When I realised i wasn't going to be able to BF I thought I would get ridiculed but I didn't. I was surprised considering how strongly they go on about it. The HV said I made the best decision for me and my baby and we were both better off for it.

Btw FF is not lazy. That's a stupid comment. If I could BF I would. It would have been so much easier. FF is a lot of hassle let alone expensive.

ChickenMe · 28/08/2016 10:20

It's not laziness-every single situation is different. And the standards of care are so different depending on where you go.
The hospital where I had DD is in a fairly deprived area-I had problems establishing BF but I can't fault the help I received. They kept us in and that really helped.
My friend had her DC in a much more affluent area. She was discharged solely expressing and cup feeding ebm. To me that is not acceptable. Many people would give up under those desperate circumstances. My hospital refused to send us home until my daughter latched on.

Maybebabybee · 28/08/2016 10:47

I also agree ff is not lazy. I've just introduced a bottle of powdered formula at bedtime and my god it's a faff. I BF because it's the easier option! But obvs wouldn't be if you were having pain or other probs.

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