To think the breast is best strategy is all wrong

[SheepOrWine]

Just back from the health visitor clinic where I was at in front of an entire wall (no exaggeration) telling me why breast is best. Apparently for one young woman it was the best decision she EVER made. This morning I read about another study which "proves" that breast is best (presumably because the many, many existing studies on this are not enough and they needed another one?) At my NHS antenatal breastfeeding class, more than half of the allocated time was dedicated to the benefits of breastfeeding.

Has anyone ever been persuaded to breastfeed by a poster or a news article? Is there anyone out there who seriously has not yet heard the "breast is best" message? Does the NHS just think women are a bit stupid but if you tell them to do something enough times they will do it?

Wouldn't this money be better spent on helping those women who want to breastfeed to do so successfully? Three months ago I was on a postnatal ward with DD where I received conflicting and often incorrect breastfeeding advice. Every time I buzzed for support a frazzled looking HCA or midwife would come and glance at the latch say "yeah that's fine" and walk off. I asked four times to see the breastfeeding advisor but she never arrived. I was discharged without anyone observing a feed.

8 weeks on I gave up breastfeeding as I just had enough of all the various problems I was having with it and for which I was completely unprepared. Before I had DD the posters were useless as like most women, I already knew I wanted to try to breastfeed. And now, post-breastfeeding, all these posters do is just make me feel guilty. What a waste of money.

I persevered too Allegra, and ended up breastfeeding 2 DC for over a year each. As I said upthread, the first 6 weeks with DC1 were utterly miserable. And the pressure of responsibility (being the only one who could feed, and realistically soothe them), combined with relentless broken nights (months and months) meant it was a deeply unhappy time.

I made it happen for myself, but I skirted on the edges of PND for a long time as a result. I don't blame women who make other choices - to try to make things a bit easier on themselves - one bit.

And yes, very much agree Doggity.

Not wanting to and so not doing so is different from wanting to but not putting in the effort to actually overcome common problems which is my point. People can do what they want, but many protest that they just tried so hard, when in fact, they didn't try at all.

Why should they? Why can't a woman say 'nope, not working.' What level of trying will satisfy you? Bleeding nipples? Crying over a hungry baby at 3am? The baby not getting enough? Postnatal depression?

Look, I'm actually latched onto a boob fiend right now. I'm a big fan of breastfeeding and a big believer in better support. I also believe that freedom of choice is vital and that we do not guilt women into feeding a certain way.

I actually think the nipple confusion thing is part of the problem.

If your baby won't take a bottle then bfeeding is quite suffocating. It just is. Maybe not if you're a certain kind of person but I'm not and many others also aren't. If I'd never been able to spend more than a few hours away from my baby the whole time I was feeding him I would have gone bats. Bats.

He's had bottles of EBM (and now he's 6 months ready made formula as well) since he was a week old, plus dummies, and as a result he's always taken a bottle happily and I have found bfeeding enjoyable and not remotely suffocating.

It's not about satisfying anyone. I combi feed to make MY life easier. I don't martyr myself about the issues around BF and imply I did all I could when I didn't. I could have BF full time, I chose not too, but i don't blame others for that choice because I made it after being well informed and doing independent research. I don't care whether people BF or FF, it's about peoples attitude to giving up BF, there is always someone else to blame.

Bleeding nipples and low supply are easily fixed. A quick google search brings up plenty of info on how to remdy such things.

The whole bring your own formula thing is made very clear in my trust, obviously can't speak for anyone else's. The NHS can't afford to provide formula for everyone and undoubtedly there are those that would milk the system and ruin it for everyone. My trust has some kept for true emergencies but otherwise they tell you when they make your birth plan to bring it in with you.

This was my experience in hospital.

"Your baby has lost 9% of his birth weight. You need to top him up with formula."

"No thanks, I'd rather keep breastfeeding him - it's only been a couple of days"

"We won't discharge you unless he's topped up."

"Ok, can I get some formula then please?"

"No, we don't give that out"

I googled and googled. I read everything. I went to the specialist breastfeeding clinic at the world class research hospital which has one of the top maternal outcomes in the world.

They still couldn't fix it. It is not as simple as a quick Google and a position change.

When it righted itself, I didn't know why. It just stopped hurting over a few days. The lactation specialist, a doctor at the clinic (actual medical doctor) said she sees this a lot. A surprising number of women have a fine latch, nothing wrong, but it still hurts. She and I discussed it at length.

We are now happily feeding away great guns. But it might not have worked out, and frankly I'd be pretty annoyed to have someone smugly tell me to jfgi or try harder.

I barely tried, had already made my mind up before giving birth. Was due back at work within 3 months, didn't want to express at work, didn't want a baby attached to my breast 24/7, wanted DP to feed baby (and others when needed). Felt no shame whatsoever, in fact DD often slept up to 3 hours between bottle feeds from about 4 weeks (it all changed by 7 months so not bragging, she never slept more than 5 hours solid until gone a year. It's not a crime (unless on MN) to not bf. DD is now 12, no harm done from what I can see!

So Allegra, you think that in my sleep deprived state I should have been able to diagnose that my DD had a lip tie...bollocks.

Google would give you a remedy on how to make dog shit taste nice! Telling someone who is in complete agony with bleeding nipples or in tears because of low milk supply with a baby that never stops feeding in such an off hand way is just bloody harsh.

Still ebf at nearly 9 months but without resources to pay a lactation consultant & tongue tie practitioner that wouldn't have happened. Nor would it have been possible without baby cafés daily & repeated trips to bfing clinic at hospital. Both the latter 2 services are being cut this year so other women won't have that back up.

I hate bfing personally for all the reasons pp have given but think there does need to more support & less pressure.

allegro I was the second in my group of friends to have a baby. The first formula fed her baby from day one.

All I was told in my antenatal class was that breastfeeding is natural. It helps you bond with your baby. It's cheaper. It has health benefits for the baby. It has health benefits for the mother. You don't have the hassle of sterilising bottles. You can't over feed the baby. You don't have to worry about making up formula correctly. Look at all these different positions you can feed in. It helps you lose weight. And on and on and on.

I would have no problem with doing research on breastfeeding before the birth but I honestly, genuinely had no idea it could be so hard. I admit I was naive but I seriously don't get how I was supposed to know that I needed to do research on the breastfeeding problems I didn't know existed.

The NHS breastfeeding session would have been far more useful if it had been five minuets long and the lady had just said "as you all know, breastfeeding has lots of benefits and can be really rewarding. But many women encounter difficulties. I suggest you go and read these books, these websites, and watch these videos."

Agree that nipple confusion is not nearly so big a problem as bottle rejection.

I'm an advocate for mixed feeding. One of the biggest issues is the pressure to breastfeed 'perfectly'. See also nipple shields. Let's be pragmatic and do what works.

Allegra, berating women for 'not trying hard enough' at one of the most intense and pressurised period of their lives is being a nasty douchebag.

Have a think about what that kind of judgement does for the sisterhood and what it says about you.

If there's any money available at all (I suspect not sadly) I think it should be prioritised on support on the post natal wards. Genuine, organised support, so that a proper feeding plan can be made for each mother and then coordinated with all the health care professionals involved. Too often it's just left up to each individual mother to try and work out what to do, or you get different advice from each different midwife. There should be enough lactation specialists on the ward so that tongue/lip ties can be spotted and sorted, latches checked properly, feeds observed and so on. No woman should feel that they've just been abandoned. If women choose to start with or switch to formula then that should be accepted and supported too.

Both times in the post natal ward with my babies I had differing advice from practically each midwife, which was contradictory and confusing. I was fortunate in that I was able to work out a plan for myself and pick and choose the advice given. I was also fortunate to be confident enough to ignore advice that didn't fit with my plan. Clearly that isn't going to be the case for everyone, and it's not an ideal situation. Both times, I went home from hospital bottle feeding a mix of ebm and formula (due to both babies being tube fed initially and then struggling to latch), and only managed to establish exclusive breastfeeding properly at home on my own. If I'd have tried to exclusively breastfeed whilst in hospital I don't think I'd have been able to, given the haphazard and contradictory advice that I was being given. Post natal support has got to be much more organised and much more expert. I don't think it's ever going to happen though as post natal seems to be a total non-priority.

Completely agree. Out of all the mothers I know, only one chose not to breastfeed. Everyone else tried. A few long term, most gave up at some point because it was too difficult/painful/poor weight gain etc.

So I completely agree that the money needs to be spent on support instead. The only thing that I would agree with is that the general public need to be more accepting of it and that people don't feel embarrassed feeding in public.

So more of the 'breastfeeding welcome here' signs.

One of the biggest issues is the pressure to breastfeed 'perfectly

Yes! I remember giving my dd a dummy at 4 weeks and crying because I was worried about flipping nipple confusion. (PFB).

I laugh about it now but at the time I was genuinely concerned that I might've messed up all my (painful) hard work.

Golden: great post and makes me think about link between birth setting and BF - DS: long hospital birth, epidural, baby born covered in meconium = minimal skin to skin, baby very sleepy and not wanting to feed, didn't feed on crowded post natal ward (was rushed off delivery suit pretty sharpish) & the fact we managed when we got home is just down to luck (and a bit due to 'the food love' by Kate Evans which I ordered while in hospital with feeding going tits up).
DD: unplanned home birth, she was skin to skin for ages til ambulance arrived and after (with very delayed cord clamping), did boob crawl thing and fed for ages within 10 mins of birth

I agree the need for preserverance, early pain, cluster feeding etc needs to be communicated to mothers so they do know what to expect & don't think cos their baby wants to feed all the time they gave no milk BUT at the sane time we need to also communicate it's martyring yourself and dies get easier. In particular I don't think many people realise that though the mother maybe the only one who can feed an EBF baby for around 6 months, that doesn't mean she needs to be with the baby 24/7: after 6 weeks or so the baby can cope away from mum for increasing stretches of time esp with someone prepared to do lots of cuddling / carrying. Many mothers also think you have to not drink when you can have a few, more than in pregnancy. I BF both mine til toddlerhood and people often cannot believe I managed it, especially since I returned to work pretty early (after 7 months) with DD, but bf an older baby / toddler is really different to an infant. Obviously you have to initiate feeding to feed an older any so we do have to get the super right in the early days, but I do think it's interesting that the UK is doing much worse compared to other countries in terms of continued BF (ie numbers doing at 6 & esp 12 months) as opposed to numbers initiating feeding. I do think follow on formula a marketing has a role here - ads are much more powerful than people realise. So many people assumed I'd stop feeding DS and switch to bottles after 6 months. Also many assumed I couldn't return to work and continue to feed. It's tricky but we need some sort of shift that combines support and honesty about the early weeks with info about how breast feeding becomes easier / more flexible as the baby gets older. I find it fascinating that recent evidence found that a higher % of mothers are still breast feeding their baby at 12 months in the US compared to the UK despite their shit mat leave and I do wonder if the fact that we have the right to 12 months off means many assume you need that leave and to be off work to BF

Sorry so many typos, most important is that BF doesn't have to = martyring yourself

I was going to breastfeed my DS however I was just too poorly after having him to do so. I spent three days after in and out of a weird type of unconsciousness. I didn't even get to give him his first bottle, nor his second or third.
I just accepted he was going into bottle and didn't really think about it again.
He's just as healthy and happy as a BF baby, plus DP could do him in the night! Bonus

I BF for four weeks. I would have BF for longer but DC was having none of it. It was a constant battle of him latching on, feeding then flinging himself off screaming the house down. It was very stressful. I did the best I could. The HV tried to help me. She could see no problem with the latch or the feeding. Even she could see I was having a hard time. It just didn't work out.

I am very aware that breast is best and it did upset me. I think it depends on the circumstances though.

Not discharging breastfeeders is a huge issue. I was told that I wouldn't be discharged with my hefty but slightly premature twins until at least 4 weeks after the birth if I was breastfeeding.

I have an older child, my husband had to go back to work and it was just impossible, had to switch to bottle. And maternity hospitals are fucking from, if anything will push you into PND it's those horrible places. They made me suicidal, as soon as I was discharged I was fine.

I had tons of breastfeeding support - a midwife on the ward who spent a lot of time trying to help me, volunteers coming to visit me at home at a couple of hours' notice, a FB drop-in group every day of the week (I live in a London borough with lots of children's centres around me).

The problem was that, excepting the hospital midwife, they were all evangelical about breastfeeding and talked about ff as if it was the work of the devil.

I didn't produce enough milk. DD's latch was fine but she wasn't getting anything to eat. I expressed, I put her on the breast constantly, I ate those revolting fenugreek tablets. She spent the first weeks of her life crying with hunger and i didn't realise it because all these people insisted I should just keep trying to bf and not even entertain the idea of a bottle. Result? At six weeks she weighed less than her birth weight. I look back at photos now and feel sick at how frail she looked, yet all these so-called experts were still insisting everything would be fine and "babies take as much as they need".

I was broken by it and found it hard to bond with her because she would cry all day and all night. Finally a midwife at 8 weeks insisted I give DD two bottles a day or she would end up in hospital. The relief of being given "permission" to FF. She began putting on weight, became calmer and happier. And when all the pressure was off and she reached a normal weight, she started to bf properly and ended up mixed feeding until she was nearly a year.

It's the pressure to bf that I can't stand, making women feel like failures if they can't do it (or making them feel like bad mothers if they simply don't want to do it). When I had DS I decided I'd give bf a go for a week and if the same thing happened I'd switch to formula without the slightest bit of guilt. As it happened he bf from day one and never had any problems.

And for what it's worth, despite their very different feeding methods they both have exactly the same eczema.

Breast isn't "best" - it's just normal. It's how mammals feed their young. Putting BF on a pedestal doesn't help - in fact it hinders in many ways.

If BF was treated as normal and just what humans do, support would also be the norm and expected. If it were the cultural norm then mothers/friends/sisters would be able to help a new mum because they would have breastfed too. But quite often they have not BF so a mum cannot help her own daughter with something so fundamental to life. It's a skill unique to females and that many are deskilled ought to be a feminist issue.

All the while BF is "best" ie special, support is hit and miss and there is an expectation - and acceptance - of failure. After all, not everyone can be "best" so don't worry. I don't mean failure of the mother to BF I mean failure by society and HCPs.

One way of looking at it is- I expect to be able to hear and if I can't I want to know why not. Because hearing is normal (not best or special or amazing) I expect to be helped and investigated properly not to be told oh just use a hearing aid and make sure you feel guilty about it while we're about it