to think Lynsey Sharp should keep her sour grapes to herself?

[WrinklyBathToes]

I can't help but feel for Caster Semenya, poor lass has been subjected to all sorts of medical interventions and whispers. It's not actually her fault, it's a natural blip, why should she be subjected to all this bitching from the losers?

She's not a bloody woman either - even if she identifies with it.

Those other lasses who didn't win medals. Did anyone see them? They're women.

OK James, we heard you... but it isn't that cut and dried... as many posts in this thread have tried to explain!

Let me simplify it: She is female. She has hyperandrogenism

Is it cut and dried or not?

And no intersex athletes identifying as male? Yep, I am sceptical.

Intersex people don't identify as one sex or another, they are assigned a sex at birth and raised as such. Caster emenya was assigned female at birth and raised as a girl. She is a woman. A woman with hyperandrogenism

Soloula, not sure if you're still checking this thread, but yours is a voice of reason and compassion. You make an excellent point about the range of intractable unfairnesses that characterise the Olympics.

I'm not sure if ivery got all the facts right but if the main issue is testosterone than what happens to people with problems with PCOS or similar problems. Can they not race? She was raised as a woman and trained with them.

I thought LS's comments were unprofessional tbh. That may well be what she thinks, and she does have a valid argument, but she shouldn't be saying it publicly like that straight after the race. It cant have been that much of surprise that interviewers might ask about Caster. She should have been gracious and made no comment. It smacks of unsportsman like behaviour and actually hinders rather than helps her cause. She now looks petty and bitter.

She's not a bloody woman either - even if she identifies with it

Caster is a woman.

I have no issue with Caster identifying as whatever she wants, none of my business. However, in sport, which relies on an individual's raw body make-up to assist in their level of success, she is half man and half woman.

This has bollocks all to do with sympathy and understanding. If she is going to do sport to an Olympic level then it's going to be raised. She doesn't have to do it.

The women running in this race know they have no chance because they are full women. I'd be utterly pissed off and would refuse to race.

OurBlanche, I think Lynsey is entitled to her opinion.. She is extremely knowledgable about it and knows far more than you about Casters condition.

I do agree however that Semenya is not a cheat.

jamesblonde, she is a woman. You don't know what you're talking about. To put it bluntly!

Why would commentators want to raise questions about Caster I wonder? What thoughts are in their minds then?

ourblanc

Just wanted to say I'm very much liking your links (not read all of them yet though).

Let's be honest.
All Caster has to do is say she feels like a woman and will be able to compete.

Maybe they tested her feelings.

Heartily fucking sick of women being disadvantaged.

She has the chromosomes of a woman but that's not enough for you because she doesn't look right? There's an argument that she should have to suppress her testosterone levels, but since when is there an argument that XX people aren't women? Womanhood is not defined by testosterone levels, just ask someone with PCOS.

It's really unfair to conflate males 'identifying' as women with intersex people who are women with intersex conditions. Caster doesn't identify as a woman, that implies that she made some kind of choice or decision to do so. She is as much a woman as anyone with female appearing genitals who has been treated and raised as a girl and woman all their life.
Caster isn't transgender, she doesn't identify as a women she is one. I'm not saying that means she should definitely be allowed to compete with women but she isn't a man, she isn't male and she isn't transgender.
Personally, I think if her testosterone levels are below permitted levels for male to female trans athletes then she cannot be excluded. If they exceed those levels then she has levels beyond pretty much all women in which case it's more unfair.
Of course there is a question over whether 10nmol is a reasonable level for trans athletes given that most women don't exceed 3nmol so if they reduce that that may impact women like caster.

Semenya is not female she is intersex.

Yes it's not just testosterone. What about the rest of her physical make-up. Like I said she can identify all she wants but to put herself in the world wide stage as a woman....well.

So, the other competitors. They're the main people in this issue. What can be said that hasn't already been said to them, to reassure them? Because they're not reassured are they? They're very pissed off.

How do you define a woman, jamesblonde?

What makes you say Semanya is not one? Her voice?

I know plenty of very masculine women! They tend to identify as butch lesbians and they could easily be taken for males and often are. It's not that uncommon.

Women don't have testicles do they?

I don't know anything about Caster's biology, other than what is on this threat but, if she has internal testes, she must have XY chromosomes but with partial androgen (testosterone) insensitivity, which is why she appears female.

That is a very difficult case because the extent to which someone with this profile has male or female characteristics varies by individual, depending on the level of androgen insensitivity.

It is also hard to say what sex she is. Chromosomally she is male, but hormonally she is somewhere between a typical man and a typical woman - she is genuinely inter-sex.

There is a lot of political / feminist projection on this thread, much of it from people who I strongly suspect are not real sports fans.

The whole concept of women's sport is predicated on the fact that we are not as fast, strong or powerful as men, therefore we have our own segregated competitions within which we can compete fairly with one another, within the normal variation of human physiology. Semenya is far outside this norm, through no fault of her own.

Hyperandrogemism presents unique challenges to women's sport and there are no easy answers. Semenya has done nothing wrong. The fact remains, however that her medical condition makes a mockery of the concept of women's sport. Sharp has done nothing wrong. She did not criticise Semenya. She criticised the rules and the rule-makers. She just wants the opportunity to compete fairly on a level playing field, like all athletes.

Paula Radcliffe spoke well and knowledgeably about this issue, I recommend watching her comments.

Can I just point out that it is not as simple as xx and xy. Some women can be xy, have internal testes and be totally female in appearance. They have complete insensitivity to testosterone so therefore their hormone levels do not confer an advantage. This is clearly not the case with Caster- but it does further complicate the position. It can't just be a chromosomal issue.

Those other non-medal winning lasses don't have testicles do they? So how are they going to reassure them that it's fair?

Maybe everyone who is FULLY biologically a woman without testicles can have a head start? That's a bit fairer.