to think Lynsey Sharp should keep her sour grapes to herself?

[WrinklyBathToes]

I can't help but feel for Caster Semenya, poor lass has been subjected to all sorts of medical interventions and whispers. It's not actually her fault, it's a natural blip, why should she be subjected to all this bitching from the losers?

If testosterone conveys no advantage, why is taking testosterone banned?

I didn't say she was a man. I said she appears to have testosterone levels within the male range as the limit of 10 is higher than than bottom of the male range. I read your post with the ranges as suggesting she was between the male and female ranges. However, if she needs to take a testosterone suppressant to get below 10 then she has male levels of testosterone rather than being between male and female.
What effect those levels of testosterone have on her is another question.

Athletics is a spectator sport. If the rules about transgender and intersex people continue as they are at present then women's athletics can just shut up shop. The general public want to see fair races. I care about sport- hell I used to run for my school.

Because our current understanding is that in strength and speed sports it does confer an advantage.

We don't know how much of an adantage this is to intersex people.

We don't know what upper level to set in order to level out the playing field.

We have not decided, as a society, let alone the IAAF, what to 'do' with intersex people, how to classify them, accept them, allow them to be male/female.

And that is before you throw transgender into the mix!

In the 60s (I think) two Russian athletes Tamara and Irina Press won lots of medals in their events. The press at the time called them "The Press Brothers".

They stopped competing when gender testing was introduced. I'm guessing they were probably intersex as well. They wouldn't have been allowed to compete any more.

I feel very sorry for everyone involved but can't shake of the feeling of unfairness to those who came after three intersex athletes. I don't know what the answer is.

shiny
Fair question. I assume that it is banned because on average it gives an advantage. However, that doesn't mean that everyone who takes it will benefit. It is easy to ban the artificial use of a substance that might be beneficial. It is much harder when the raised hormone levels are natural and to some extent go to a person's identity.

if she needs to take a testosterone suppressant to get below 10 then she has male levels of testosterone rather than being between male and female.

That made more sense, thanks!

1. We don't know what her levels are
2. The usual levels bandied around are '3 x normal female'
3. Yes, taking a suppressant would indicate that her levels are higher than 10
4. That takes you back to Dutee's point about needing to know rather than guess the level of benefit

Regardless of casters personal circumstances sport is normally competed with xx and XY seperately. It isn't just testosterone that is the difference: men also have narrower pelvises than women. And more muscle mass and less fat (all due to testosterone to some extent). It is odd that this isn't an automatic test rather than testosterone levels alone. Admittedly it would make things awkward for intersex atheletes.

i.guim.co.uk/img/media/fa60292eb3c143c49cd702ade5e63b8a6e00e53a/941_0_2399_2398/master/2399.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=ca54e0aa2115295236a24db1ebbd88cf

YABU

If I were a female athlete I would absolutely refuse to run against this person and others who are similar. It is completely unacceptable and in no way an even playing field.

It's really out of order to call caster a man without a penis or say she isn't a woman. Presumably she has female appearing genitals and has been raised as a girl and believed she was female until finding out she is not straightforwardly female.
If caster has a level of testosterone way in excess of most women's maybe she shouldn't compete alongside women but let's not call her a man.
And of course no intersex men would compete - their condition would be likely to reduce their testosterone and rule them out of elite men's sport rather than be an advantage as it appears to be for women. It's highly unfair to make this a question of 'identity' as if intersex athletes made a choice to identify as women to gain unfair advantage rather than having female appearing genitals and being raised as girls.

If Caster being 'raised as a woman' is a reason for them to compete in a woman's race, then 'living as a man' must equally have a weighting.

She isn't a woman. Neither is she a man. She is an intersex person, which is perfectly natural - intersex people have always existed and I think approx. 1:1500 people are born with intersex characteristics.

The problem is that there is no proper recognition of third sex people and in sports there is no category for them - its either male or female and so people who don't fully conform to one or other gender are caught in the middle. There needs to be official recognition of third sex people that perhaps includes the transgender athletes who are also now allowed to compete as their new gender. Is it fair that someone who was born as a male is now allowed to compete against those born as females? No! The sports governing bodies need to move with the times and recognise that not everyone falls into a simple male/female categories.

derxa, what do you mean by 'fair races'? A level playing field?

Alec were you trying to prove your more Troglodyte credentials there?

If so, well, you might want to think about this lady... and all the nasty media suggestions when she was a champion...

i feel desperately sorry for both Caster and the other intersex athletes in the race, plus those competing against them. It's an impossible situation.

However, if you focus not on the individuals but on sport, what is in the best interest of women's athletics in the long term (participation etc..) then the answer seems to be to prevent them competing alongside women with female chromosomes, hormone levels etc.

Gender is the only stipulation to run in the women's race. Everything else - race, training, height - all that is the luck of the draw. Gender is the only level playing field going on at the Olympics and the only bench mark competitors have to meet. That's why it's different to every other attribute that could be considered an advantage.

While I would not for one moment suggest that Caster is not genuine in identifying as a women, I do think we have to ask ourselves why this isn't also an issue in the men's races. If it were, that would be the strongest argument to suggest that women were not being unfairly discriminated against in having to race against intersex athletes. It would also strength the position of every intersex athlete claiming that their choice of gender has nothing to do with their likelihood of winning a race. But as far as I can tell, this is only a problem for women. And to be frank, women have suffered enough discrimination one way or the other over the years. We have to make this fair for everyone, not silence women on grounds of political correctness.

At the end of the day, we are all free to identify with whatever gender we like but it may not fit the body we're landed with. The gender qualification on the race is about the body we have, not how we feel or how society should affirm us.

She's not flaming intersex. She's a eoman!

woman

If Caster being 'raised as a woman' is a reason for them to compete in a woman's race, then 'living as a man' must equally have a weighting. Well, you can say that, as often as you like, it still won't be true!

Harry you are right, a woman with hyperandrogenism!

And really, there is no level palying field. Take out the money, and the drugs, focus on just the physiology, gendered or otherwise:

height, blood flow, metabolic efficiency, muscle mass, muscle fibres, bone structure, pain threshold, fatigue resistance, power, speed, endurance, susceptibility to injury, psychological aptitude, and respiratory and cardiac functions all confer benefits.. and sqwuillions of otherthnngs we haven't found and named yet!

www.newscientist.com/article/2101769-intersex-athlete-caster-semenya-rightly-free-to-run-at-rio/

hermione sorry my post wasn't very clear. I disagree with the transexual ruling too, but my post should have said pre treatment transgender or transvestite. If we allow high testosterone provided it's naturally occurring, there is nothing stopping any man who comes second to Bolt or Farrah rocking up in a dress and entering the female athletics.

Why do people keep saying she's not a woman? She had gender testing and was allowed to continue competing as a woman. Regardless of the speculation over supposed leaks of her medical records, this can only have meant she doesn't have Y chromosome. Whatever her internal genitalia or testosterone levels, she is not a man.

OK James, we heard you... but it isn't that cut and dried... as many posts in this thread have tried to explain!

Let me simplify it: She is female. She has hyperandrogenism!

Many women with high levels of testosterone have very low voices, lantern jaws, muscle mass. Some is caused by training, some by PCOS, hyperandrogenism and other androgen imbalances... but they are ALL women!

That's how biology works... that's why there is need for more research and a less fuckwitted kneejerk response more informed decision making process!

ourblanche what makes her a woman? (genuine question, not goady).