to think Lynsey Sharp should keep her sour grapes to herself?

[WrinklyBathToes]

I can't help but feel for Caster Semenya, poor lass has been subjected to all sorts of medical interventions and whispers. It's not actually her fault, it's a natural blip, why should she be subjected to all this bitching from the losers?

You're guessing, with all due respect, shiny.

Then why not compete with the men?
If you are inter sex.

Oh no, your female biology would put you at a disadvantage.
Better disadvantage the other females with your make biology.

I don't give two shits about the rule book.
That is not fucking fair.

You're guessing, with all due respect, shiny

Not if she has internal testes. That is the only biological pattern that fits male testosterone levels, internal testes and a female phenotype (appearance).

Pingu, "Intersex people don't identify as one sex or another, they are assigned a sex at birth and raised as such".

If intersex people are assigned a sex at birth, aren't we all assigned a sex at birth? Are we all intersex then?

Caster Semenya is definitely a woman because she was raised as female? That's the definition of a woman - someone who is raised as a female? What does that even mean; raised as a female?

What about biology?

shinynew agree she's probably got partial AIS. People with complete AIS have been allowed to compete as women because even though their testosterone levels are very high their body lacks the receptors for androgens, so they can't use them. People with complete AIS don't look masculine though, although they are often tall and slim with large breasts.

It sounds like it's time for a review of the partial versus complete AIS rules, where the former will have physical benefits from testosterone but the latter won't but it's not the serum levels of testosterone that will be the differentiating factor.

amid without seeing her tests, the fact that she was given a 'sex test' and allowed to cmplete as a woman. That she is female with a medical condition that confuses the issue.

Just5 yes, she is a woman. But has a a medical condition that confuses the issue.

James she is not transgender, she is a woman, a medical condition that confuses the issue. The other competitors will just have to wait for science to come up with enough evidence to enable sport to make sensible informed decisions, not nasty kneejerk ones!

Ed intersex, yes, she knows that now... but was brought up with everyone believing she was 'just' female... there is no discreet form of intersex...

BIll nor does Semenya, as far as we really know. Nor do many other 'intersex' individuals!

Shiny yes, sort of, but that isn't really the whole truth of it. But it did allow lots of use of the word 'hermaphrodite' at the time!

Bonnie yes, but people need to be sure to look at / listen to the uncut versionof Radcliffes opinions, or they will just hear the rather weird media cut and paste of what she actually said!

Yabu. I feel very sorry for Lynsey - it's not a fair race. I feel sorry for Caster too - to have your private details raked over like this is awful. But it is quite simply not "fair".

To me, the testosterone suppressing drugs was the fairest solution, but that was overruled. Incorrectly in my view.

The concept of "assigned at birth" applies to the incredibly small number of people who have ambiguous genitalia and the parents decide to raise them in one sex or the other.

It's usually used completely out of context.

I'm guessing from descriptions that Caster seemed female at birth, and she wasn't "assigned" anything.

Trans people are most definitely not "assigned" anything at birth. The fact of their sex is correctly noted.

bonnie
There is a lot of political / feminist projection on this thread, much of it from people who I strongly suspect are not real sports fans

I'm not a sports fan at all. And you make a valid point. I'll stick to lurking from now on.

I think the fact that the top 3 athletes are androgenic seems to provide proof that the naturally elevated testosterone level provides an advantage. I realise that none of the athletes involved can help this but is it fair on the non androgenic athletes that no matter how hard they train then they are almost certain to lose to an athlete who has a natural advantage?

I understand that surgery or drug treatment could remove that advantage, maybe, if Caster wants to prove she’s the best then she should consider these options to see if she still can win??

It's not fair on women to have to compete against men ( including trans m-f men) or intersex people. Simply not fair.

Kidnapped until she was in her teens no one knew she was anything other than a 'butch' female. Outwardly female, brought up as female, mostly biologically female with a medical condition that confuses the issue. Sorry

As nolongersurprised said, because we now know more about what the condition is, we need to know more about its effects... not just for sport!

Intersex isn't always obvious at birth! If caster has female appearing genitals then her condition wouldn't have become apparent until puberty when her sex hormones were developed.
Female and male isn't assigned at birth. Some intersex people have ambiguous genitalia and they used to be assigned a sex based on the appearance of the genitals and either what they looked most like or what it was easier to carve them into with surgery.

To me, the testosterone suppressing drugs was the fairest solution, but that was overruled. Incorrectly in my view. It will probably be reinstated - but this time with some specific science behind it. That is all that was asked for.

I hope so, Ourblanche - but sadly, that's no good for Lynsey, and other two competitors right now. I don't think either woman should be getting criticism. It just seems unfair on women (you know, non-intersex/ non--hyperandrogynous women) as so many things seem to be. As much as I feel sympathy for Caster, I cannot help feeling that.

decaff people with complete AIS lack the receptors to make use of androgens, they don't derive any benefit from their higher blood levels of testosterone. They don't look masculine. Ironically, they are often rather beautiful women.

Complete AIS has been deemed fine in elite sport and the rules are now being challenged about partial AIS. People with partial AIS will have physical appearances show an androgen effect but it's the receptors that differentiate the two, not the blood test.

And whilst this science is awaited, women are missing out on once in a lifetime Olympic medals. Maybe they should have decided it the other way round.

I'm not sure I feel more or less sorry for either of them. As I said before, many athletes live and compete their whole careers with single dominating players. They just have to accept that that is their time and concentrate n their own competition.

Whether that dominating player is simply an extraordinary human, a drugs cheat, mechanical cheat, intersex or any other 'unfair' factor, doesn't change that.

I'll wait for the science, see what happens then!

Would not a pelvic ultrasound show whether someone has testes or ovaries or indeed both?
Just a question there.
As for the PCOS yes it might increase levels and that is why there is a wide range due to that and other conditions.

Alternatively, James some women are being lambasted and ridiculed for simply having a medical condition, looking less feminine than some people would like, and being bigger, faster and stronger...

... maybe there was no 'right' way round!

Thanks Hermione, OurBlanche and Broomhilda.

That makes sense. Didn't really understand the 'assigned at birth' thing.

It does seem very unfair for biological female athletes to miss out on their medals whilst the science is investigated. These athletes might not get another chance at a medal (not least because they'll be competing against at least 3 intersex athletes in the interim).

And I suspect that the new ruling will require even further scientific research. Meanwhile some female athletes' careers will be gone. Collateral damage I suppose.

Idlike yes, but that still wouldn't make any difference... it isn't the point, vestigial sex organs have little bearing on male/femaleness... but again, that gets complicated to explain, and it wasn't my specialist subject so I am not sure I could even try without messing it up !

Collateral damage I suppose. Only if they want to remain bitter. Just part of an exciting new sport world of science and boundary expansions...

... just as new technology brings, new rules, new training, etc etc.

Fair enough. Not related to olympics but having a bad episode with my PCOS atm and pretty sure my testosterone is through roof.

Exciting new world of boundary expansions?
insane you mean.