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AIBU?

to think Lynsey Sharp should keep her sour grapes to herself?

507 replies

WrinklyBathToes · 21/08/2016 17:29

I can't help but feel for Caster Semenya, poor lass has been subjected to all sorts of medical interventions and whispers. It's not actually her fault, it's a natural blip, why should she be subjected to all this bitching from the losers?

OP posts:
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KimmySchmidtsSmile · 24/08/2016 10:49

Fallon Fox allegedly did tell Ivicta FC she was trans before her first fight.
I don't blame Rousey for not fighting her but do find it interesting when she has previously claimed she could knock out men, that she hasn't taken on the challenge. She has an age advantage and some argue male socialisation (her mum woke her from sleep doing armbars). Fox has bone density and grip.
I cannot see Fox, however, fighting again as with no support from bosses and no willing opponents, who and where will she fight?

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EmpressKnowsWhereHerTowelIs · 24/08/2016 10:54

But nobody really is fighting for men to compete in women's sport.

But they are, that's the problem. All a man has to do to compete in women's sport is claim to be trans and get their testosterone down a bit.

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Bluebolt · 24/08/2016 11:09

But this is the can of worms, why should transgender athletes have to reduce their testosterone when intersex and therefore women competitors do not.

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StatisticallyChallenged · 24/08/2016 11:24

Even if they do reduce testosterone they will be at an advantage compared to born biological women imo. If you have developed a male physique, gone through male puberty, etc etc etc then whether you suppress your testosterone or not you should not be competing against biological females

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BeyondLovesSweetDee · 24/08/2016 11:33

Blue, I imagine when it happens that a Mtt athlete loses out to an intersex athlete - having lowered their testosterone - people might not think that is fair.

But women? Pfft, may I introduce you to the underneath of the bus.

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SirVixofVixHall · 24/08/2016 11:34

Actually I would amend that to :- if you have, or have ever had, testicles then you should not be running in the women's races, or competing as a woman in competitive sport.

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sofato5miles · 24/08/2016 11:37

Have an intersex dividion then. While i understand thst for the individual it is tricky it pisses me off that this is another area that women are being penalised. pun not entirely unintentional

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powershowerforanhour · 24/08/2016 11:47

Actually I would amend that to :- if you have, or have ever had, testicles then you should not be running in the women's races, or competing as a woman in competitive sport

Reckon so. All the IAAF has to do now is prove it to Cas' satisfaction. They will have a decent sized control group of reproductively ordinary women (for want of a better term) and women with PCOS, but they might have bother getting a large enough group of known intersex athletes for statistical significance at this point, even if they can legally lump them all together and not have to consider eg Chand and Semenya in separate groups. There might need to be a few Olympic cycles with intersex athletes winning more and more of the medals each time as more are recruited into their countries' high performance programmes till the IAAF can conclusively prove advantage, change the rules and try to resurrect women's sport from the dead as it may be by then.

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AlecTrevelyan006 · 24/08/2016 11:54

Amazing to think that Caitlyn Jenner won gold in the men's decathlon at the 1976 Olympics...

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SpecialAgentFreyPie · 24/08/2016 12:02

The thing I feel the most sorry for Caster for is, she'll be remembered as the one who 'caused' the downfall. Obviously not her fault, but I admit I cannot help but find it distasteful. I just can't help it.

I still think when politics swing the other way, there will be a lot of fairer rules, and it'll be interesting to see whether world records and medals are kept.

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powershowerforanhour · 24/08/2016 12:06

I don't think you can fairly or legally strip a medal from somebody who is competing within the rules at the time.

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SpecialAgentFreyPie · 24/08/2016 12:40

What if the rules change and someone who is intersex held the world record?
This is all weirdly complicated and weirdly simply at the same time.

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MotherofPearl · 24/08/2016 12:40
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MotherofPearl · 24/08/2016 12:45
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NauticalDisaster · 24/08/2016 12:53

No flaming from me but the article is conflating two separate issues that have nothing to do with each other.

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ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 24/08/2016 13:00

Mother
I don't think there will be flaming for pointing out that GB does well because it spends a huge amount of money on sport. Nor that athletes from poor countries are at a disadvantage. That is true but it is a separate point to the one being is discussed here. I don't think it is helpful to conflate the two - both need to be looked at.

This issue is around the segregation of sport into male and female. If that is done because it is believed men have a biological advantage due to their hormonal make up and its influence on their development, then what do you do when you have a female competitor who naturally has a more male hormone pattern due to a DSD.

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MotherofPearl · 24/08/2016 13:08

Chaz and Nautical, I do see the point you're making. I guess part of me agrees with the article - that the Games are ridden with a range of complicated inequalities; that maybe there will never be a level playing field - and part of me is sympathetic to what you and others on the thread have stressed - that it is fundamentally unfair on other women athletes to allow those with this testosterone advantage to compete.

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carabos · 24/08/2016 13:28

AFAIK not all intersex people are raised as women. There will be plenty of them out there living as men - living as a man confers many more lifelong advantages than a moment in the sun as an elite woman athlete.

I think that unless the sporting bodies get this sorted out, we will see certain categories of athletics become dominated by intersex athletes. I read something the other day that suggested there are only a few disciplines where real advantage is gained - the women's 800m being one - because the balance favours raw power over the fine technique that is more of a factor in some of the other races.

There is also the issue that most of these visible athletes are coming from developing nations, where care for the athlete's health is secondary to their ability to win medals when unmedicated. There are considerable risks to health in not having surgery or hormonal supplements in some cases.

It's a pretty sorry mess.

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StatisticallyChallenged · 24/08/2016 13:39

The difference between female vs male performance should give an indication of which sports would see the biggest impact.

IIRC- I looked at it before - the entire field of male triathlon competitors, all 50 of them, had faster finishing times than the winning female in London. Given how willing some countries are to employ underhand tactics to win then I would not be surprised to see intersex people being targeted for training, or to see men being...encouraged towards declaring a transgender identity. I don't agree with the current tg rules and I think they could be challenged further if the current intersex rules stand

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SpecialAgentFreyPie · 24/08/2016 13:46

I'm not sporty, so I don't understand why any man would want to pretend to be trans just to get a gold. I get why the country would push it, that's obvious. But individual athletes? I mean, wouldn't you feel like you didn't really earn it? I'm not wording this well. I'm thinking like when people rave about a singer's magnificent voice, then we find out she lip-syncs. Isn't it the same sort of scenario?
Can someone who isn't as thick as me about sports explain the thought process/satisfaction rate on an individual level?

Noticing a lot of not exactly subtle comments are popping up and promptly disappearing from athletes on social media.

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manicinsomniac · 24/08/2016 13:53

Special - I see what you mean about feeling they didn't really earn it. And, in richer countries, I suspect you are right that individuals wouldn't want to do this. But if going to one or two international championships and running a race would secure money and a better future for you and your family, would you not consider it? I think I might, if I was stuck in a poverty cycle.

I'm not saying that's what Semenya or any other athletes have done this year! Just agreeing that some countries could successfully exploit intersex individuals in the years to come.

The guardian article puts its one side very well. I agree with a lot of it. But it doesn't really cover the other side. It's all so complicated.

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noeffingidea · 24/08/2016 15:36

special why do you think any athletes cheat? Obviously the benefits of winning overcome any sense of fair play and achievement.
Athletics are now big business.
From what I understand, success for Caster will also filter down to benefit not only her family but also her community.
You can also look at East Germany in relation to womens athletics. They ran a systematic doping programme (without the athletes knowledge) , to the extent that at least one of the women now feels that living as a man is the only option open to her.
Of course some men will pretend to be transwomen (or be pressurised into it by officials). It's really naive not to think so.

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user1471602604 · 24/08/2016 16:07

As I understand, CS has XY chromosones. I believe she has a condition (PAIS?) which makes her cells only partially respond to the androgens she produces, so that she has developed a body with female external genitalia rather than male ones. However, she has internal testes and no womb or ovaries.

It's a minefield.

Perhaps a good initial starting point is to return to first principles: i.e, "Why do we have a separate women's category in the first place?"

The only real reason we do it is because otherwise, top-level athletics would basically become "this thing that blokes do," there wouldn't be any female athletes in the media etc.

So women would feel like "top level athletics is not really anything to do with me." Perhaps this would result in less female interest in sports in general and so on. The parents of little Jimmy and Jessica (who both show tremendous talent at running) might consider getting little Jimmy into some really serious traininghe could become an Olympian!but of course they wouldn't do that to the same extent in the case of young Jess. Why bother? She won't win athletics medals. Girls don't do that. Perhaps this would gradually have a chilling effect on women's and girls' athletics in general, in the long run.

Sooooo..... let's say that 20 years from now, most medals in a lot of athletics are basically going to intersex women and transwomen. Would that feel like... kind of the same thing? Would women experience a sense of loss--a sense of "People who look and feel like us and represent us are not at the Olympics?"

I don't have any clear answer to that question. I wouldn't rule it out, though. Looking at some of the responses, here it's clear that to many people there was something a little jarring, at the gut level, about the sight of this race being won, across the board, by women who, let's be honest, did present a very masculine profile.

Of course, one might say "That is a silly reaction and women should not feel that way." But if women do feel that way... you can't just tell them to stop feeling that way. And if, in the future, the women's category in many sports starts slowing ceasing to fulfill its function of making women as a whole feel "represented" by the Olympics, well, what is the point of having it? Because the women's category does not really have any other function, does it?

I do know that right now, as of 2016, if I had a daughter who showed serious promise at running, I would be a lot less likely to think about "My God, could this child possibly be a future Olympian? Should I talk about getting them into some serious training??" than in the case of a boy, because I feel like we are seeing the writing on the wall right now.

As it happens, I don't give a shit about sport and think it's mostly a waste of time anyway, so from a selfish point of view I don't actually care that much. But if we do start to see some of these awkward tradeoffs between women's sport vs being inclusive towards trans and intersex athletes, well, I can see how it would potentially suck for people who really are interested in women's sport.

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SpecialAgentFreyPie · 24/08/2016 16:24

Thank you for the answers, yes that makes a lot of sense to me, I guess i didn't think to compare it to cheating because you can 'hide' cheating, something like this; not so much.

Excellent post user

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carabos · 24/08/2016 16:40

People will always cheat, always find a way to be the winner because the payoff in validation / adulation is much greater than any disquiet they may feel about doing it.

DH is a professional in a minority sport and has represented the country. You would be amazed at the cheating, pot hunting, gamesmanship that goes on even at grassroots level.

Let's not pretend CS is an innocent victim here. She's doing it and putting up with the scrutiny because the rewards are there. She has a champion's mindset or she wouldn't be where she is at the top of her sport, no matter what her chromosomal profile.

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