to think Lynsey Sharp should keep her sour grapes to herself?

[WrinklyBathToes]

I can't help but feel for Caster Semenya, poor lass has been subjected to all sorts of medical interventions and whispers. It's not actually her fault, it's a natural blip, why should she be subjected to all this bitching from the losers?

[Lyndie]

Yes me too. YABU OP.

[IndominusRex]

I'm torn with regard Caster and other women athletes with naturally high testosterone - it's an indisputable advantage but it's not cheating and their body type is clearly good for their chosen sport, much like gymnasts are petite, high jumpers are tall etc
Transgender athletes on the other hand, hell no. That under current IOC rules someone can 'self identify' as female for just one year and as long as their testosterone is within range can compete against women is completely and indisputably unfair and unacceptable - men have different body mass, muscle strength, lung capacity etc. 'lady brain' (or liking shoes and lipstick as it seems to boil down to apparently) doesn't change these biological factors. And it leaves a MASSIVE loophole for corrupt regimes to exploit a la eastern block back in the day.

[OurBlanche]

I have never found that info... the SA government did make a huge fuss whenshe as 18... and she has never published them, as is her right! Various UK athketes have refused to publish them in the past... not that long ago, it caused a bit of a kerfuffle...

That is why I just gave the 'normal range' info earlier.

And, like AF, I have views on trans competitors and I don't think intersex and transgender atheltes should in any way be treated the same, spoken of as beig the same, etc. I find sentences like why is she more important than all women and their right to a fair playing field in sport? It's similar with the trans threads that crop up here -women always seem to come last truly irksome, for very many reasons!

[Kidnapped]

I always thought that intersex was actually quite rare. I remember when Caster Semenya came on the scene and was referenced as the first intersex athlete in over a hundred years of athletic competition.

And what do you know? Now we have at least three of them popping up in a small field of athletes? And no intersex athletes identifying as male? Yep, I am sceptical.

How does the IOC define intersex anyway? Or even 'woman'? Does the IOC and the IAAAF just take an athlete's word for it? And if a biological man who is not intersex has had surgery to create a vagina then how is that accounted for? You then have the situation where a biological man is more physically like a biological woman than an intersex woman is. And the intersex woman and the biological man will be allowed to compete against biological women. And how long before intersex women are complaining about biological men being allowed to race against them? Not long at all if this is allowed to continue.

And if intersex is actually quite common (and they scored all of the medals in the 800 so it seems to be very common in certain athletics quarters) then surely that's a great argument for having male, female, and intersex races at the Olympics? Or male, female, and open races? Open would cover intersex and transgender athletes.

At the moment biological women (or women as I like to call them) are getting screwed over by a lot of people. And that is unfair.

[shins]

Anyfucker sigh yes, am used to it. Was monstered on social media by my right-on friends who are scared of having the wrong opinion when I pointed out the ferrible unfairness of the OC ruling on testosterone this year. I might venture into that snakepit again, just because I feel someone has to speak up. My daughter is an extremely fast runner and budding athlete. I have to say something even if just for her.

[Just5minswithDacre]

She's intersex. She is biologically BOTH male and female. She looks like a female from the outside, but has male components to her biology which means she produces many times more testosterone than a standard woman would. She was brought up as a girl. There aren't many people like Caster Semenya, around 1 in 2000. It's a spectrum, and it's not in any way the same as people who "identify" with one gender or the other irrespective of their genitalia. This is a biological fact.

I don't think she should have been allowed to compete and can understand why Lynsey Sharp is pissed off about it. Other athletes were probably equally angry, but weren't asked about it by the BBC.

This.

Politics will increasingly outweigh science in sports decision-making, however. It's a terrible shame.

[Changeasgoodasis]

YAB highly U. The interviewer was at a great fault for asking the question at the time that he did. I think her answer was very diplomatic given her emotional state. You saw the girls who came 3 - 6 embracing and crying because they are all in the same boat.

People saying that it is speculation that CS has no ovaries and internal testes - the BBC report that it is the case. I understood that CS is externally female but internally male.

Would it also be an advantage to not menstruate? The brave Chinese swimmer who brought up the usually taboo topic of menstruation affecting consistency of performance for many women reminded us of this. When I was involved in gymnastics as a youngster many used birth control pills to disrupt the cycle so as not to menstruate during a competition, I don't know how things are with that now. Mild anemia from menstruation can affect performance too for instance.

It's horrendously sad for all involved, was very moved by a BBC documentary about the condition some time back www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0139jv4 . An article in the Times recently stated that there are increasing numbers of intersex people in the area of SA that CS comes from and it may be due to a mosquito pesticide. It's been such a silent and hidden condition.

[Rainbunny]

"Incidentally, I can't quite believe this hasn't come up on the thread yet, but the IOC made a fairly significant rule change this year to allow trans women, including pre-op, biological complete men who identify as women, to compete as women as long as they have been on hormone treatment for a year prior to the race."

This makes me furious too. The biological advantage that growing to adulthood and going through puberty as a male gives a man, can't be "evened out" by hormone treatment. Biologically men have more red blood cells, bigger hearts and lungs and generally develop a larger musculature than women. I feel sorry for Caster Semenya but I also feel sorry for her competitors as frankly just from looking at her I feel she has some biological advantages that go beyond her testosterone levels. She really does resemble a strong looking man in many respects. I'm trying hard not to be offensive but I apologise if I sound offensive.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

Personally I don't think that it was sour grapes, people have jumped on the comments because that is what some people like to do.

As for a solution to the situation, I have no idea.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

OurBlanche
The testosterone figures in nmol/L are
Men
9-38

Women
0.52-2.4

So the average for female athletes at the World championships was bit higher than normal. The limit of 10nmol/L is at the bottom of the male range so any athlete that needs to take medication to get below 10 is in the male range not the female.

I think Chand was arguing that the IAAF haven't proved that high testosterone gives a benefit.

[IndominusRex]

Kidnapped- men can currently compete alongside women as long as they lower testosterone and claim lady brain!

[gonetoseeamanaboutadog]

If we say a race is open to men or open to women, we have to abide by that. ALL men and ALL women have to put up with whoever they're racing against, provided they fit the gender label.

But this lovely person doesn't fully fit the 'female' gender from a biological perspective and while it's not her fault, we're under no obligation to put someone in a race who doesn't belong there by right of being female.

Clearly, forcing a biological label (and therefore sporting label) upon athletes would be discriminatory to those intersex people identifying with the other gender. Perhaps the solution is to have an intersex category; that way, no one runs under a label that doesn't biologically apply to them.

Ultimately, what every athlete will want and should want is a fair race. That means running against people who fit the category for the race. It's not discriminatory - or at least, not any more so than the whole notion of competitive sport in general.

[sparechange]

Yes Dexra, she did
And for decades before that, she had very irregular periods, and has been very vocal about the struggle women have with fitting in training and competing with the it periods.
She also talked about her fears of having infertility issues due to the years of irregular periods due to her training schedule
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with your Wikipedia cut and paste

[sparechange]

Caster is apparently married to a woman.
I would be interested to see if Caster lives as a woman outside the arena.

Sorry, WTF have I just read?
Reported, you vile homophobe

[EDisFunny]

YABU

Though I have every sympathy for the intersex athletes I do not think they should be competing against female athletes.

I feel very bad for the 4th placed athlete in that race, she really deserves a medal, a gold.

[TealLove]

"And what do you know? Now we have at least three of them popping up in a small field of athletes? And no intersex athletes identifying as male? Yep, I am sceptical. "

This

[HarryElephante]

EDis, how even a playing field should athletes play on?

Money? Size? None of these are commented on, seemingly. The USA and GB financially dope on a massive scale compared to lesser, third world nations.

[HarryElephante]

And China

[Alisvolatpropiis]

I feel sorry for Caster but I can see Sharp's point.

[FriendofBill]

I'm questioning if Caster is living as a man.
because what I saw, was a man winning the woman's 800 metres.

[OurBlanche]

Chaz different measure, same levels... 2.4 x 3 = 7.2 - still lower than your average Joe when measured in nmol/L

The limit of 10nmol/L is at the bottom of the male range so any athlete that needs to take medication to get below 10 is in the male range not the female. Erm... I think you may have misunderstood my post - or I yours - as that makes no sense, in context of the posts you seem to be responding too!

Or are you just saying that as Semenya had to take a drug to get her testosterone below 10 then she is obviouslay a man? Too simplistic by half!

I think Chand was arguing that the IAAF haven't proved that high testosterone gives a benefit. Yes, of course she was. And that the ceiling measure of 10 was a nonsense, a randomly chosen number not based in science! The Court of Arbitration agreed with her. The IAAF have a deadline... there are now a lot of research studies into androgens...

There may be lots of changes in our understanding of male/female ness... or there may not be! We can only wait and see!

In the meantime, intersex and transgender are not the same thing!

[sparechange]

So being married to a woman is something that raises doubts in your mind that she is anything other than a man?
wow.

[bevelino]

I feel for all those involved especially Caster. As it must be difficult winning a gold medal knowing that you have a physiological advantage over the other women competitors. It is is very clear that not all gold medals are equal.

[OurBlanche]

I would be interested to see if Caster lives as a woman outside the arena.

So ban all gay athletes then!

because what I saw, was a man winning the woman's 800 metres and all ugly ones too!

And no intersex athletes identifying as male? erm... well you wouldn't become elite if you were a woman trying ot compete in mens competitions, would you?

And given how the androgens work, it is far less likely to hapen that way in the womb - though I may have that wrong, it has been about a decade since I researched it... science changes...