to think Lynsey Sharp should keep her sour grapes to herself?

[WrinklyBathToes]

I can't help but feel for Caster Semenya, poor lass has been subjected to all sorts of medical interventions and whispers. It's not actually her fault, it's a natural blip, why should she be subjected to all this bitching from the losers?

user1471428657 - you're splitting hairs. They are very young and they have no track record.

LyndaNotLinda* As I said before, I suspect I'm largely in agreement with you on the bigger picture. However describing a 20 year old former world junior champion as 'coming from nowhere' and '[having] no track record' is misleading. (Although not as down right wrong as the claims made regarding Semenya's times by other posters.)

The fact that Wambui has run significantly faster this year, now that the testosterone limit has been lifted, is 'interesting'/suspicious. However we can't prove that that's the cause of the improvement.

Preventing athletes who are XY and have androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) from competing as women is probably not fair, since they don't benefit from their high levels of testosterone
Is it possible to prove that somebody is completely and utterly androgen resistant? Upthread it has been said that completely androgen resistant people tend to be unusually tall for somebody looks female. This would seem to be an advantage I think. If it's true then either ovaries make you smaller, or true complete insensitivity to all androgens is vv rare

user1471428657 - there is a long history for most athletes before they get to the Olympics particularly at 800m which isn't a race run by 20 YOs generally. Regional/national successes, success at continent level games. Niyonsaba has a degree of that. Mambui has none.

Steroids are banned. Testosterone isn't. While there are arguments about what effect it has, it is clear that Semanya's performance fell off a cliff when she was forced to take T suppressants and recovered once she stopped.

LyndaNotLinda you're claiming that being a previous world junior champion isn't comparable to regional/national success!?

More importantly testosterone is a steroid hormone and exogeneous testosterone is on the WADA banned list. It would be a good idea to some research before making bold statements about something you seem to know very little about.

It's not so straightforward to say that she started taking testosterone suppressors and her form dipped so end of story. Not even close. She was forced to take a year out in 2010 while she was being investigated, in which time she didn't train, became severely depressed and put on a fair bit of weight. 2011 and 2012 she came second in the Worlds and Olympics behind a Russian athlete now accused of doping. She then suffered lots of injuries, went through loads of coaches, had personal issues and lost her funding over the space of 3 years. Her stopping taking the hormone suppressors coincided with finding decent coaches and overcoming injuries.

She faces the same problems as all other athletes. I find it awful that all her hard work, training, dedication and accomplishments have been totally taken away from her and she apparently only wins because she has different hormones. No other reason.

She wins because most of the others have hard work, training, dedication and accomplishments; she has hard work, training, dedication, accomplishments....and a fuckton of endogenous testosterone to which her body responds better the silver medallist's does.

www.nytimes.com/2015/07/29/sports/win-for-dutee-chand-but-line-between-male-and-female-athletes-remains-blurred.html

user1471 - no, I'm saying it is very unusual to become a junior WC without any significant wins before that. And I do understand the difference between natural and exogeneous T. I think it does make a difference. Jamie is arguing otherwise.

If it was that easy to call, there wouldn't be the controversy there currently is. I tend to agree with Dr. Eric Vilain, a medical geneticist at U.C.L.A. quoted in the article I linked to above:

“For me, this is a victory of identity politics and activism,” he said. “Now I’m really worried about the future of women in sports because if we push this argument, anyone declaring a female gender can compete as a woman. We’re moving toward one big competition, and the very predictable result of that competition is that there will be no women winners.”

This is my worry - that women will be erased.

Regarding Semenya's performances :

As anyone who watched the 800m final saw, she ran a PB, but she quite clearly did enough to win the race, and no more. She jogged the first lap and only ran the last 150m properly, and ran a away from the field. She held her form to the line, while her rivals were clearly struggling to stay near her. She was barely breathing hard after the race, while her rivals were spent.

It's obvious that she could have run significantly faster if she wanted to. Fast enough tho break Kratochvilova's world record? Very probably. We may find out soon, if she runs in the Diamond League.

She might as well run as fast as she can, while she can. If she and the other athletes with hyperandrogenism are going to be allowed to run, I'd rather they let rip. I'd like to see the record broken by somebody who is competing legally, as Caster almost certainly is (albeit unfairly IMO, through no fault of her own). I know they are free to just win and no more if they like, but I think in the interests of sport you should go for the max in your last event in the Olympics in a short race.

The first three all have this "issue" - don't know what else to call it.

Lynsey I believe was 6th - so if you take the top 3 out of the equation, she would have got bronze.

Hard to take, I think. It was almost like 2 separate races were being run.

We can only speculate, but my guess is that Semenya knew she was going to have to deal with a load of grief for winning the gold medal, (particularly from those who appear to know a lot about the politics of identity, race and gender but nothing about sport), without heaping more on herself by breaking the world record.

I think she could run 1.52.xx if she was paced to a 56s first lap....

I agree with truemovies it's always women that suffer in these situations. Casta's treatment on this issue was awful & I feel sorry for her, she didn't choose to be born this way however she is now choosing to use the way she was born to her advantage. Her high testosterone levels give her an advantage over truly female athletes & this cannot be allowed.
I feel a lot more sorry for Lynsey sharpe & the rest of the female athletes running against these people, Casta just happens to be the most high profile. This needs to be stopped in the same way that artificial doping is, it may be natural to Casta & other intersex athletes but it's not natural to women & these athletes are running in female events & should therefore have to comply with the female norm.

I am far from an expert but from what I have read & seen with my own eyes there are clear advantages over natural women & clear regulations need to be put in place to protect not only the women competing against Casta & the likes,but also the people affected so that the way that Casta was treated never happens again.

The first three all have this "issue" - don't know what else to call it.

Lynsey I believe was 6th - so if you take the top 3 out of the equation, she would have got bronze.

Hard to take, I think. It was almost like 2 separate races were being run. Exactly I'm going to make a point of not watching the 800m. It makes me feel very uncomfortable. I have nothing against the athletes themselves.

I know, BonnieF, but running most of the race at a hand canter, while everyone else is galloping flat out, and still winning with ease, is hardly going to sneak you under the radar any more than caning it and breaking the record. Damned if you do and damned if you don't I suppose.

Bonnie I did read somewhere that Semenya could smash the world record if she wanted to but that she refuses to. But how on earth anyone can know that, I don't know! I do agree that the race looked easy for her though and think it was probably sensible of her not to win by too much.

I've also read speculation on twitter than Mambui is a transgender man, not intersex. There's absolutely no evidence for this, afaik, and I feel so sorry for her and all the athletes caught up in this situation, both intersex and female. For the sake of all of them, somebody who knows what they're doing needs to make a decision!

I'd be very interested to know what the majority opinion among female Olympians is WRT to this. Obviously we never will, because Sharp made a rather mild comment and is being crucified for it, but I can't help but be curious if her peers agree with her or think sour grapes.

Fair point, Power. She may, of course, be waiting for a promoter to offer her $$$$ for a world record attempt....

Special agent - the Polish athlete who finished one place ahead of Sharp made similar comments after the race, but this has not been so widely reported.

Special agent - the Polish athlete who finished one place ahead of Sharp made similar comments after the race, but this has not been so widely reported.

The Polish girl's comments were a bit

What was the comment? My Googling powers are failing me

“This season I had a lot of health complications and injuries, which is why I am very pleased with this result. I feel like the silver medallist,” Jozwik told Eurosport.

“The three athletes who were on the podium raise a lot of controversy. I must admit that for me it is a little strange that the authorities do nothing about this.

“These colleagues have a very high testosterone level, similar to a male’s, which is why they look how they look and run like they run.”

“It hurts a bit. I saw Melissa Bishop who was very disappointed, she improved her personal best and was 4th. It's sad, and I think she should be the gold medalist."

I'm glad I'm the first European, the second white," she added.

Sounds like I was probably right when I said Caster doesn't have the respect of her peers.

Wtf with the white comment though

The white comment is awful! I'm shocked she thought that was ok to say