to think Lynsey Sharp should keep her sour grapes to herself?

[WrinklyBathToes]

I can't help but feel for Caster Semenya, poor lass has been subjected to all sorts of medical interventions and whispers. It's not actually her fault, it's a natural blip, why should she be subjected to all this bitching from the losers?

Kinda confused why Sharp is the one getting all the attention when someone else said that

powershower you'd like to see her break the world record while she legally can? I wouldn't. That would have a long lasting negative effect on the women's 800ms.
Check out the womens 100 and 200 metres. The record is still held by Florence Griffith-Joyner, set in 1988, with no realistic hope of it being beaten, well at all.That affects the interest in these womens events. Of course, it was never proven that Flo Jo 'doped' but it's hard to come up with any others explanation.
That is the danger in this event, that Caster sets a world record that is unachievable by women with 'natural' levels of testosterone.

If Caster actually did hold back, that suggests she knows she has an unfair advantage. Which would make her a lot less popular than if if she genuinely thinks she's being persecuted

It's interesting that if she was a trans athlete she wouldn't have been allowed to compete with those levels of testosterone.

These problems are going to get worse in years to come when certain countries realise they can gain huge advantages and gold medals.

Women's sport is a protected category for a reason. Girls won't bother to try to compete if these circumstances continue.

Yeah but the current 800m record is similar to FloJos. I agree it does decrease the interest. In every event they put the record up on screen at the start and speculated happily about the chances of it being broken, went nuts when van Niekerk won, etc. When FloJo's time for one race I saw was put up the BBC commentator just said flatly,"No realistic chance of that being broken any time soon" and didn't mention it again. If Caster beats the current 800m record, I think it will be a more moral record than the one which exists at present. If the testosterone rules change in future as I believe they should, then the record can be asterisked.

I honestly think we'll have a few Olympics of PC intersex and trans, then there will be complaints that there are no women, and the female athletes will say 'what's the point?' and it will finally be fair. Poor Caster will be remembered the as the one who 'started the downfall' IMO, which is sad because it's not her that wanted transexuals in women's sports, but was her case that has allowed it.

We will end up with fair women's sports, but not before a few careers are destroyed and the damage is done.

The podium for the race was... perturbing. Were all three medal winners intersex? They looked very masculine.

I'm wondering if this is a glimpse of all future winners podiums in women's athletics. Non-intersex women will just have to give up...

OurBlanche if you're not an expert on chromosomes and sex determination, what relevant issues are you an expert on? Firstly, why does anyone here need to be an expert? But to answer your question, I am part way through a DPhil looking at the effects of strength training on pre/post menstrual women. I have spent 20+ years working with people with sub clinical issues in a wide range of interventions, some of which I am published on. I have taught at FE and HE on exercise and public health, spoken on symposiums about exercise, health, obesity, etc.

What is your expertise on chromosomes and sex determination?

I'd strongly recommend that you (and a lot of the other posters on this thread...) go away and do some research on the history of sex determination in athletics before pontificating. Mmm! Yes, that's a thing I have never thought of... no, wait!

IMHO the article I recommended previously would be a reasonable starting point ( A brief history of intersex athletes in sport). This is a really difficult, complex issue and arguements based on ill-informed opinions won't help solve it. Your opinion! Whilst LetsRun is a good informal source of information, I won't be referencing them at any time soon. I have, however, read and referenced some of Joanna Harper's academic work, have you?

Are such magazines what you base your opinion on?

(IMHO...) Preventing athletes who are XY and have androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) from competing as women is probably not fair, since they don't benefit from their high levels of testosterone. On the other hand letting anyone who is XY but dosn't have AIS compete as a woman isn't fair on the vast majority of women with significantly lower testosterone levels. The 2011-15 rule, with an upper limit on testosterone set at the lower end of the normal range for men, wasn't ideal (since there was no scientific basis for the exact level of the upper limit). However it was a better interim measure than the current situation. Yes! All of which I, and many others, said a lot of pages ago... with links, explanations etc.

But tell me, what expertise do you base your opinions on?

Blanche I think the expertise question was rhetorical, as you were being rather critical of other posters.

I think Blanche is well aware of that, Special. But the rhetorical question was intended as a passive-aggressive way of saying "see, you know no more than the rest of us" - Blanche is pointing out that while she may not be an expert in the field, in the sense that it is her primary area of research, but she is in fact widely read on the issues. That seems fair enough as a response (and is actually a pretty good response to PA attacks generally - disingenuously take 'em absolutely seriously).

Anyway, I've learned a lot from this thread - the extended interview with Joanna Harper upthread is a very interesting read (and reassuring - she's obviously not the sort of women to throw either biology or women's sport under the bus in pursuit of some extreme trans ideology - she comes across as very careful, and a good scientist).

It's one of those terribly hard cases - Semenya in all social and cultural respects is a woman, but is at a huge advantage relative to non-DSD women. But something's got to give somewhere - either you defend women's sport and have functional testosterone limits, or you defend the right of DSD individuals to compete, in which case they will set limits that no biologically typical XX woman can come close to. The governing bodies have to make a choice on this one. Sadly for Semenya, much as I admire her and think she's a terrific athlete, I think it's one of those situations where being fair to the greatest number of people wins out, so I personally would back testosterone limits (interestingly, from that long interview with Joanna Harper, that seems to be her position too).

Thank you Matilda that was the plan And yes, Joanna Harpers opinion, there and other pieces, does seem to be on the side of common sense... let's just hope the IAAF gets off its not so high horse and provides some proper research that will allow the rules to be changed with no further challenge. If they don't then this will rage on and aon...

Special I know I was being snarky. I don't do it often and am usually embarrassed afterwards.

In this case I may not be as I was annoyed by the "She's a man" comments that continued way after many posters had discussed it and the thread was moving on... "She is ugly, muscled, fast, got a jaw" comments started me off and the "I haven't read all 12 pages but..." probably finished it, as it takes the ongoing discussion back to page 1.

I know I am not the thread police, it isn't mine to monitor, but, on issues where women are decrying other women in such a crude and ill informed manner, is anathema... to me and the forum, surely!?

I am obviously awful at reading 'tone' so sorry

I honestly cannot see the IAAF winning as there will be human rights lawyers to challenge every decision. As it stands with women with such high levels of testosterone I cannot see how the compulsory limits on trans athletes can stand either.

Ach! Don't be sorry... I was being belligerent. And 'tone' is such a hard thing when someone is being a snark.

Now I am embarrassed, may have to name change... especially as I think that post linked with some of my others might mean I get a colleague texting me saying "Hi Blanche"

I think it will be hard to argue the case for including pre-op transwomen whilst simultaneously excluding intersex women. If women's sport is not going to be made up entirely of people who have a Y chromosome, then the rules need to be changed (again)

This is slightly off topic, but have any questions been asked of Almaz Ayana shaving 14 seconds off the women's 10,000m world record. Because that is really an unprecedented margin and very very suspicious

Yes there were whisperings. That said, she couldn't replicate it in the 5000m - maybe deliberately or maybe she was spent from her efforts in the 10,000m. I don't know what to think but Jo Pavey made the very good comment that you don't get suspicious until you have something to be suspicious about. I got the impression Paula R was more cynical.

Noo don't namechange! I'll forever think of myself as the thick bellend who caused The Namechange. With capitals

On topic, I agree with you about commenting on her physical appearance. That's why when stuff started to be said about the other winners, I hesitated. Looking masculine doesn't mean you ARE a man or intersex! I think commenting on her appearance in regards to pelvis shape is very different to 'wow she's ugly' sort of comments.

Then again other than midwives, I don't think people often comment on the attractive shapeof a woman's pelvis?

I think that transgender people and intersex will be allowed for a few Olympics. Then when (and it will happen) there are virtually no biological women in certain fields, complaints will arise and eventually things will be fair. I feel this is all a political decision and therefore when the politics swing back, the opposite decision will be made. But careers will be destroyed in the meantime.

i find it odd all this cloak and dagger about trans identites. It will be fairly obvious visually if a pre operation trans person is racing I mean, you can even tell Laverne Cox is obviously trans.

I know I am not the thread police No you're not. We're all entitled to our opinion within talk guidelines. The thread seems to be now going the way of painting Caster Semenya as a heroine. She is not. She is a professional athlete who seems to have an unfair advantage over other professional athletes.

"She is ugly, muscled, fast, got a jaw" comments started me off"...

Blanche, those comments about ugly are your comments and yours alone. You've done it three times on this thread (on Sunday 21 August at 19:49, 23:18 and then again at 23:54). Nobody else has.

You are quoting yourself and then saying that those comments started you off. And then provide the justification for the anathema, decrying women stuff that follows.

I am very nosy and curious about what Caster thinks. If she personally feels she has an unfair advantage, but doesn't care, then I would lose all sympathy for her.

Given the political nature of the whole affair and how tight lipped the athletes are being, I think she must be, well, despised. Otherwise surely the other athletes would be flocking in their media support?

I don't think anyone said "she's a man", did they?

Lots of us believe that she is genuinely intersex - both male and female. Not through choice or because she identifies one way or another, but through a biological "accident" when she was developing in her mother's uterus. Of course it's not her fault, it must have been distressing to have your gender questioned to openly at a young age.

But if it can be proved that people like Caster Semenya have an unfair advantage over women who have none of the intersex characteristics then the only way forward is to ban them, or insist they lower their testosterone levels.

I was talking about the issue of intersex and trans athletes in my one post. My thoughts must have muddled. But actually, now that you mention it, someone did suggest that one of the other winners may be a man, not intersex.

I suck at science. Can someone explain something to me? If Caster is intersex, would she have XX or XY chromosomes?

If it can be proved that people from developed countries -with generous state funded support and excellent training facilities - have an unfair advantage over people from developing countries then the only way forward is to ban them, or insist they lower their funding levels.

The olympics is not really about a level playing field in many ways.

If it can be proved that people from developed countries -with generous state funded support and excellent training facilities - have an unfair advantage over people from developing countries then the only way forward is to ban them, or insist they lower their funding levels. So we should allow female athletes with raised testosterone levels to run if they come from 'developing' countries' (whatever they may be).

I'm sorry, I'm going to commit the heinous crime of not RTFT first...

But those who say it is fair and her intersex-ness (along with the silver and bronze medalists) is just a quirk in her biology. Would you be arguing the same if it were the three medalist positions in boxing?