to think Lynsey Sharp should keep her sour grapes to herself?

[WrinklyBathToes]

I can't help but feel for Caster Semenya, poor lass has been subjected to all sorts of medical interventions and whispers. It's not actually her fault, it's a natural blip, why should she be subjected to all this bitching from the losers?

if Caster does have internal testes as reported, why doesn't she get them removed? If she identifies as females as she says she does then why keep them? I was also under the impression that internal testes were at an increased risk of becoming cancerous

Apart from the loss of athletic advantage, there may be other drawbacks to gonadectomy. Ovaries and testes produce hormones other than just oestrogen and testosterone, so if you are left with nothing there may be long term health consequences that can't be solved by synthetic hormone replacement therapy....with most endocrine deficiencies we can't replicate the complex array of hormones in the correct quantities at the correct times, not as well as nature can do it anyway. For example, if you have type I diabetes, then no matter how sophisticated your insulin pump is, it probably won't be as good as a fully functioning pancreas; my Addisonian friend cannot lead a 100% normal healthy life despite a lot of thought being put into her steroid replacement therapy over the past 15 years etc.
I don't think we have evidence for the safety of gonadectomy over leaving 'em in over the long term. AFAIK there is some evidence that castration of some breeds of dogs may increase the risk of other types of cancer, cruciate ligament damage and other problems (even when you correct for the tendency towards weight gain). OK humans will respond differently but it's so unpredictable- and I bet not every person would react in the same way - so I'd still worry about long term deleterious consequences. In humans, leaving the testes in situ but scanning them periodically for evidence of cancer and testing for biochemical markers of cancer so you only need to step in when a problem arises might be safer, who knows.

Blimey O"Riley Ourblanche - you have got a nerve, haven't you?

You were the one who kept shouting that Caster is a woman upthread, till lots of us pointed out you are wrong and that she is intersex. So please don't accuse us of being simplistic or unable to understand the science.

I like the idea of a women versus other categories (not least because it "others" men for once).

Either that or hyperdrogenic athletes have to supress testosterone levels OR female athletes are allowed to dope.

shiny yes, I do! As you still have it wrong!

Legally, socially, psychologically she is a woman. Biologically too, but, as I keep on saying, she has a medical condition that makes it more complicated.

Those definitions I linked to, C+Pd explain it... I have done the obvious thing and, since she is female on all legal paperwork, have assumed she is any of the above options than 46XY. Probably 46XX, female with vestigial male genitals.

You seem to have assumed something else, despite all of the obvious information widely available, presumably to fit your own bias! You seem not to care about a wider view, a more human approach. You seem to just want to have something to moan about.

I find that extremely distasteful.

Those definitions I linked to, C+Pd explain it... I have done the obvious thing and, since she is female on all legal paperwork, have assumed she is any of the above options than 46XY. Probably 46XX, female with vestigial male genitals

Really? Then please do explain her high testosterone levels.

Someone posted no normal women can beat her... Caster is not the Olympic Record holder nor the World Recorder holder are we saying that all the women who have been faster than her in the past are not normal women?

Kay, as posted up thread, she has run the 2nd fastest time over the distance ever. The only person that has run quicker was at a time of heavy eastern bloc doping.

As for the original question in the thread; LS can say what she wants, we have free speech as far as I'm aware.

are we saying that all the women who have been faster than her in the past are not normal women?

No, we are saying that the only people ever to have run faster than Caster Semenya were Soviet Bloc athletes from the 80s when state sponsored doping was par for the course.

And the two athletes who came 2nd and 3rd have come from nowhere to suddenly start winning Olympics finals in the one race where power counts more than training

Something that I don't understand is why she has been categorised as a woman with hormome problems.

Given that she has no ovaries, no uterus but internal testes (producting male levels of testosterone) then why hasn't she been defined as a male with anatomy problems?

I'm genuinely curious. I mean no offense with my crude wording of 'categorising' Castor, I just can't find the PC words.

It is the idea that the top 3 have high levels of testosterone that is more of a problem than Caster alone. If the rules change then this will eventually be the testosterone final if they don't then it is conceivable that this will be the outcome for the next 10 years as the bronze winner is only 20. Young women will begin to avoid the event and look for an alternative and funding will decline. No answers and Caster seems a remarkable young woman but this will do nothing for the uptake of 800m.

There's a lot of factual misinformation on this thread...

Semenya hasn't run the 2nd fastest women's 800m time of all time. Many, but not all, of the women who've run 800m faster than Semenya are from the Soviet block in the 1980s: all time women's best 800m list.

The 2nd and 3rd place finishers in the 800m didn't 'come from nowhere'. Margaret Wambui has run significantly faster this season than when the testosterone limit rules were in place (IAAF profiles of Margaret Wambui , Francine Niyonsaba), however she is only 20.

This article by Joanna Harper (a transgender medical physicist) is interesting reading on the history of the rules regarding intersex competitors in athletics.

I haven't read all 14 pages but I have been quite sad for the other biologically female athletes. 3 of them athletes were intersex! Does anyone else think there really needs to be a separate group for intersex to make it fair. I sympathise with intersex people but Why is it always normal biological females that always have to end up with the short straw in these situations, wether it be intersex, transgender etc it seems anything with 'female' in it are just lumped together. It never impinges on males.

Really? Then please do explain her high testosterone levels.

Why not read the thread again? You, don't have to rely on my info you will find that quite a few people have explained it!

Happy I have tried to explain, it is pretty complicated, but it boils down to two things:

1. Pre-puberty, from birth, she looked and had the visible genitals of a girl.

1. What she looks like and what her chromosomes say are contradictory.

All that is happening is that sport, and the wider world, are now having to make a conscious decision on how it sees, classifies, intersex individuals.

Given that she has no ovaries, no uterus but internal testes (producting male levels of testosterone) then why hasn't she been defined as a male with anatomy problems?

The simple answer is probably that her genitals looked female at birth.

Basically, all embryos start off developing female anatomy and only become male if testosterone production is switched on and the body responds to it. So, to be fully male, you need XY chromosomes, to produce testosterone and to respond to it normally - otherwise your genitals usually look female.

It is highly likely that Caster is XY (whatever Professor Ourblanche may think ), produces male testosterone levels but does not respond to testosterone fully. This is partial androgen insensitivity. So it is not really true to say she is a man - she is genuinely intersex.

It must have been traumatic and humiliating for her to discover all this in the full glare of global publicity. I feel intensely sorry for her as an individual, but I don't think it is fair for her to race women. It is not just her current testosterone level, it is the fact that she will have had much higher levels all her life, so have stronger bones & muscles.

OurBlanche if you think Caster is XX, as you said above, could you explain her high testosterone level please?

You see shiny I have never said otherwise. You seem to have misunderstood something I have posted, or confused my posting with someone elses...

x-posted then!

I did, pages ago, as did many others. If you really do have a medical degree then you know the answer... have referred to one possible answer in your previous post... and are simply trying to make some odd point based on something you think I may believe or have posted.

As for Caster not breaking the world record there is a theory that she deliberately held back so as to dampen the controversy after her win. IMO this theory seems pretty logical.

If she had smashed the world record it would have been much, much harder for her or anyone else to argue that testosterone levels are irrelevant. And there would have been clamouring for the testosterone issue to be looked at again with urgency.

ie she would have shot herself in the foot

This is slightly off topic, but have any questions been asked of Almaz Ayana shaving 14 seconds off the women's 10,000m world record. Because that is really an unprecedented margin and very very suspicious.

You seem to have misunderstood something I have posted, or confused my posting with someone elses...

From your previous posts:

I have done the obvious thing and, since she is female on all legal paperwork, have assumed she is any of the above options than 46XY. Probably 46XX, female with vestigial male genitals

Legally, socially, psychologically she is a woman. Biologically too

Just5 yes, she is a woman. But has a a medical condition that confuses the issue

Semenya is a biological woman! That's the point. Just one with a medical condition that complicates the issue!

Let me simplify it: She is female. She has hyperandrogenism! Many women with high levels of testosterone have very low voices, lantern jaws, muscle mass. Some is caused by training, some by PCOS, hyperandrogenism and other androgen imbalances... but they are ALL women!

I agree with many of your points about the complexities of being fair to intersex athletes. But you are doing your argument no favours by bringing in points on biology that you clearly don't understand. Caster cannot be XX if her testosterone level is as reported.

user1471428657 - Niyonsaba's records go back 4 years, Wambui's go back 2. At that level of competition, most runners have had years of competitive racing. By contrast, Sharp has 7 years.

Niyonsaba came out of nowhere and beat competitors who had had years of training and coaching. She beat Olympic qualifying time within a year of becoming a serious runner. Wambui has no track record whatsoever.

LindaNotLinda I actually agree with you that their performances raise eyebrows. However 20/21 year olds with 2-4 years of national/international leve performances have not 'come out of nowhere', and saying things which are demonstrably untrue weakens your arguement.

So that explains you last couple of posts, but not those before the one I posted XX/XY etc.

As I said earlier, I am not an expert in that aspect of it. Instead of sniping at me why didn't you just say "Sorry Blanche you have mixed that up." and then used your own knowledge to correct me, properly?

I made an incorrect assumption. Thank you for finally clarifying that. But, she is still female, legally, socially and, as far as we can know, given her current athletics status, biologically female enough to give pause!

That last is what the whole fuss is about and it may be, given more research, that this changes... but at the moment.... she is a woman! With medical issues that make it a bit more complicated!

OurBlanche if you're not an expert on chromosomes and sex determination, what relevant issues are you an expert on? I'd strongly recommend that you (and a lot of the other posters on this thread...) go away and do some research on the history of sex determination in athletics before pontificating. IMHO the article I recommended previously would be a reasonable starting point ( A brief history of intersex athletes in sport). This is a really difficult, complex issue and arguements based on ill-informed opinions won't help solve it.

(IMHO...) Preventing athletes who are XY and have androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) from competing as women is probably not fair, since they don't benefit from their high levels of testosterone. On the other hand letting anyone who is XY but dosn't have AIS compete as a woman isn't fair on the vast majority of women with significantly lower testosterone levels. The 2011-15 rule, with an upper limit on testosterone set at the lower end of the normal range for men, wasn't ideal (since there was no scientific basis for the exact level of the upper limit). However it was a better interim measure than the current situation.