to think Lynsey Sharp should keep her sour grapes to herself?

[WrinklyBathToes]

I can't help but feel for Caster Semenya, poor lass has been subjected to all sorts of medical interventions and whispers. It's not actually her fault, it's a natural blip, why should she be subjected to all this bitching from the losers?

What I don't understand is, if Caster does have internal testes as reported, why doesn't she get them removed? If she identifies as females as she says she does then why keep them? I was also under the impression that internal testes were at an increased risk of becoming cancerous.

I agree with specialagent. Someone with testicles, internal of external, is not female, they are male with a medical condition that renders their appearance more female in some ways. I realise that this type of intersex condition in particular is on a spectrum, and so as pp said some people will be entirely female in appearance, while some with only partial AIS will look more male. Obviously the individual hormonal profile will also have an impact. I sympathise with anyone intersex, it must be a really tough condition to be born with, with infertility and all the other issues, but I still think that it is absolutely unfair for women to run alongside someone who has many of the advantages of being male. Semonya looked so very different from the women she was running against. I don't know how this can be resolved but I think that a pps suggestion of male races, female races, and an open race which would allow for transpeople and intersex people might be the only fair way. It seems impossible to make everyone happy here, and to be fair to everyone.

Faced with the question, "How do we define a woman?" they have answered "A woman is defined as Not A Man

Surely for the purposes of sport that makes perfect sense?

No. Even your very own proposal for the classification goes against this by making the classifications "Woman" and "Not a Woman"

decaff people with complete AIS lack the receptors to make use of androgens, they don't derive any benefit from their higher blood levels of testosterone. They don't look masculine. Ironically, they are often rather beautiful women.

Like the episode of House where we discover that the most perfectly beautiful example of a woman is... a man.

derxa and others. Semenya is a biological woman! That's the point. Just one with a medical condition that complicates the issue!

Is that medical condition called being biologically male?

decaff CAIS people are tall, slim, large breasted, don't have acne and have no or sparse pubic and underarm hair.

I'd have liked to hear Sharp express regret that the IOC/IAAF didn't address this issue fully following the Dutee Chand ruling - that they didn't use the year between the ruling and the Olympics to conclusively set out their policy on hyperandrogenism or what makes an athlete conclusively female.

This issue was a long time coming to a head. Unless I am underestimating the amount of work that needs doing to resolve this issue I feel that the IAAF could've prevented a lot of hurt on all sides.

And yes to the PP who pointed out that with her background Semenya was unlikely to be tested to anything like British standards as a baby to determine sex or check for abnormalities - I'm familiar with the area where Semenya grew up and it's very impoverished.

So instead of "men's" and "women's" competitions we should have "open", in which anyone can participate, and "women's", where entrants are required to meet the sporting definition of female. The sporting definition is allowed to be more restrictive than definitions used for other purposes

^^ This seems eminently sensible. Men's, Women's, Open. With the women's sporting definition being set within the typical biological/chemical bell curve that 99% of women fall on. Trans and Intersex athletes with combinations of physique and body chemistry outside that standard bell curve qualify to compete within the Open category, create Open world records and Open standards of sporting excellence, and create promotion of sport and achievement for Trans/Intersex children.

If not, then surely a man can start to compete with women just because he says he's a woman? And then say he's intersex if anyone queries him.

He wouldn't even need to say that, Kidnapped. All he'd have to do would be take hormones, get his testosterone level down to 10 or under for a year and say he felt female.

That's IT.

The olympics costs a fortune to hold as it is. I don't see open races as being financially viable for the handful of transgender/intersex athletes who would compete.
They could maybe reclassify the men's events as open so anyone who isn't genetically female with a testosterone level below 10 (although I'd like to see this lowered) could compete in the open race.

Was this thread set up by a journalist? A lot of people have participated in the discussion but the OP wasn't one of them which seems odd.

Certain countries will have been ruthlessly targeting adolescents diagnosed with this condition for Olympic glory since Caster came onto the scene five years ago. It's sinister and depressing. Several events in the Tokyo Olympics will be ruined if something isn't done soon. It is time to nip it in the bud and ban intersex athletes from women's races ie no one with testes can participate. It's all desperately sad and I'd feel bad for the women involved, but it would be for the greater good.

None of what I've said by the way, is intended to vilify Caster, who seems hardworking and committed, and has always been dignified.

And I can't blame Lindsey for being desperately disappointed. A medal would have been achievable in a fair race. I thought at the end of the race that she was simply not world class, and wouldn't ever get a medal in a major championship, but I now know that I wasn't correct. She was hard done by.

CAIS people are tall, slim, large breasted, don't have acne and have no or sparse pubic and underarm hair.

Ok. Do they have testes and a Y chromosome? Are you arguing that they are women, or that they look like women so if they've been raised as one should be allowed to compete as women, or something else? I am arguing that they don't fit into the category of "woman".

Why should the category of "woman" broaden, why not "man"? I feel angry, as a response to feeling like it is always women who have to budge over and make space, to the detriment of women.

2rebecca the cynic in me says that intersex women wouldn't want to compete in the men's events, because they wouldn't have much chance of getting gold, silver or bronze

I've just read Sharp's statement to the BBC:

"'I have tried to avoid the issue all year. You can see how emotional it all was. We know how each other feels. It is out of our control and how much we rely on people at the top sorting it out.
'The public can see how difficult it is with the change of rule but all we can do is give it our best.'"

I take back what I said. I agree with this fully - "the people at the top" need to offer clarity, sharpish.

Lynsey Sharp finished 2nd in the 2012 European Championships, but this was upgraded a year later to gold after the winner, Elena Arzhakova, was disqualified for drug taking.

So, I guess it must be frustrating to feel that you are competing against others who shouldn't be there.

decaff I'm not "arguing" anything at all. I just find the whole hormone profile/physical phenotype interesting.

I feel angry, as a response to feeling like it is always women who have to budge over and make space, to the detriment of women.

Yes, exactly this.

Having the men's as the open makes perfect sense!

It really does!

decaff you quoted me up thread where I pointed out that ironically, women with CAIS were often considered very attractive and so I subsequently outlined why. That's all. I'm a HCP, I find hormones quite interesting. I'm not trying to make any form of politicised statement, although, like everyone on this thread I have my own option.

Again, maybe I'm being cynical, but some of the people who might be thought to fit into the 'open' category wouldn't want to be there because it would be more difficult for them to win, imo

I've been quoted at, sampled etc this morning... sadly by people who don't / can't / won't understand the science and keep repeating the same simplistic inaccuracies.

She is biologically a man... No, she really isn't, please take some time to read www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex

But in short, these are the reasons your statement that Semenya is a man are too simplistic and miss the point!

46, XX INTERSEX: The person has the chromosomes of a woman, the ovaries of a woman, but external (outside) genitals that appear male.
So, has a willy, but is female...

46, XY INTERSEX: The person has the chromosomes of a man, but the external genitals are incompletely formed, ambiguous, or clearly female.
May not have a willy, may have labia, but is a man.

TRUE GONADAL INTERSEX: The person must have both ovarian and testicular tissue. The person may have XX chromosomes, XY chromosomes, or both. The external genitals may be ambiguous or may appear to be female or male. This condition used to be called true hermaphroditism.
May have both, or neither, genitals, so....

COMPLEX OR UNDETERMINED INTERSEX DISORDERS OF SEXUAL DEVELOPMENT: Many chromosome configurations other than simple 46, XX or 46, XY can result in disorders of sex development - both cases have an extra sex chromosome, either an X or a Y. These disorders do not result in a condition where there is discrepancy between internal and external genitalia. However, there may be problems with sex hormone levels, overall sexual development, and altered numbers of sex chromosomes.

Looks like, walks and talks like... but has internal issues, may not be wholly either, or....