Why do people still think it's ok to use racist terms re gypsies?

[GingerbreadGingerbread]

I am from a Romany gypsy family but a couple of generations ago. You would never have a clue if you met my parents and came to my family home as it was only on one parent's side and my mum and dad are wealthy and I am privately educated and have an academic career. However I am ashamed to say that I am nervous to tell anyone of my heritage. I am proud of my family and my gypsy grandparents who I was closer to than anyone in the world and spent the most time with whilst they were still alive. They were honest, principle led and amazing people. However I lost count of the number of occasions educated seemingly nice normal people come out with: "they are just disgusting gyppos aren't they?" Just now a colleague burst into my office saying someone had stolen his fork and they must be a "thieving pikey gyppo". Why is this seen as acceptable? It's disgusting and just makes me dislike the arrogant ignorant idiots! Are any MN willing to come forward and admit to using this language and explain why they find it acceptable?

Ginerbread

This thread is "incendiary", anyone who has been on MN for any length of time knows how it will go.

there is a difference between justifying and giving examples of why some people might use racist terms, there is often a fine line between the two but there is a line.

If I saw someone shitting under a bridge I'm not sure I would be able to identify him/her as a gypsy or traveller. So I'm a bit confused about how that kind of behaviour becomes associated with a whole group of people, except via racism.

Mind you, I can't recall hearing people use this kind of racist slur except for one boy in my class many years ago who, for reasons that were unclear, blamed all society's problems on gypsies. We all challenged him every time it happened. I doubt we changed his mind, but he did eventually learn that we wouldn't put up with it.

No one should have to put up with hearing any kind of racist remark in this day and age. It's outrageous. OP, have you considered raising a grievance?

I agree with AdjustableWrench that you should raise a grievance about this.

BoneyBack Should it never be discussed then?

Wench It hadn't crossed my mind probably because I think people will be forced into "taking me seriously" when they think I'm making a fuss about nothing and that "the community brings it all on themselves anyway".

It's a very very working class area; lots of refugees, Eastern Europeans etc. People generally rub along fine. People aren't stupid.

I live in an area becoming increasingly popular with Slovakian Roma: amongst other issues this has brought has been a rise in TB (apparently, there's no comprehensive vaccination programme in Slovakia), especially exacerbated by the habit of spitting (not a Roma habit - common across ethnicities and races round here) and an increase in open-air defecation (we don't have bridges, but we do have a long passage between terraces ). Both of these things have public health implications. Do I think all Slovaks or all Roma poo in the passage and have TB? No. Do I understand that they often do have very different understandings of public and private space? Yes. Do I wish that was different? Too bloody right!

However, it was useful for me to learn that in their culture, it's a disgusting thought that you'd go to the loo in your own home, in your living space - so I can see why they might find it acceptable to relieve themselves outside. With the help, though, of various services, this issue has been addressed - and they have learned to adapt in much the same way we have had to learn to adapt to them. It works if there's give and take on both sides, but I can absolutely see it would be foul if your only experience of people from whichever culture is under the microscope is one of their culturally-unacceptable-to-us behaviour. It's bound to have you thinking dark thoughts - but it's like anything: you never notice the 99% of whichever minority (students/Muslims/Travellers/Gypsies etc) that's minding its own business and getting on with life - it's the 1% who are twats that get everyone else a bad name.

I said in a PP I've not heard this attitude about Travellers/Gypsies - I do hear it (and call it) about Jews. I don't think there's a prevailing culture of any group being OK to racially abuse - I think it depends on the society you are in and move in. The liberal Left intelligentsia of academia would rather eat their own young than appear to be Islamophobic, for example - anti-Semitic, not so much.

I worked in a professional role with travellers a good few years ago. I had to leave due to work related stress. It really wasn't a pleasant experience. I have never and would never use racist slurs though.

Gingerbread

I am all for it being discussed (there are many things that I would like to discuss that will never happen), but in order for that to happen in a constructive way, emotions need to be put to one side (harder said than done).

People think of tax-dodging sexist homophobes living on the fringes of society.

Gypsies tend to make the local news when they've camped illegally and created a mess, it's rarely for positive reasons.

So, many people think they're fair game.

Id never use the word pikey or similar, but I can see why gypsies don't generate sympathy. And many don't help themselves.

shovetheholly

I wholeheartedly agree with what you say and how you have explained it. Unfortunately a small number of people continue to express prejudice and either believe they are justified in some way or can't see what they are saying is wrong.

Im not going to say they bring it on themselves but I have a question. In a community apparently ruled by a strong hierarchy and a strict moral code, if the anti social behaviour is not approved of by the majority/leadership why does it continue?

Ie why does the community allow a minority to spoil the reputation of the rest?

A large part of my family are "travellers" (in marks because they don't like the umbrella as they are all from different origins) and they take more offense from the word chav than they would gypsy. Although I have noticed that some """"friends"""" of mine use me to justify using g*po

I used the word gypsy. I know gypsies and have used the word around them - I was unaware it was an issue . Surely it depends whether you mean it negatively?

I think people will be forced into "taking me seriously" when they think I'm making a fuss about nothing and that "the community brings it all on themselves anyway".

Well, you'd have the Equality Act on your side.

I'm sure there are some people who think that women complaining about sexism are making a fuss about nothing, and some people who think the same about disability discrimination. I suppose that's why we need an Equality Act.

I don't know where you work, but I'd formed the impression that most academic environments were (at the institutional level at least) fairly intolerant of racism and sexism. So you might find that your grievance is taken seriously - as it should be.

That came out wrong - I meant that there are usually institutional policies against racism and sexism. The day we have lots of women of colour being promoted to professorial level still seems a long way off, unfortunately.

I don't cos I'm not a racist but I have heard a colleague and a friend use these sorts of terms. They are both people who will denigrate Muslims as a group too, use the term chav freely, basically racists / snobs / people very suspicious of anyone 'other'.

I do think they and others are more willing to insult gypsies and travellers than other groups, more openly and casually, and would not see doing so as racist. I think the reason is that they view (and experience) travellers in terms of travelling - as a behaviour, not as a group (and probably have no experience of gypsies at all).

Then, because the only aspects of that behaviour that come to anyone's attention are negative ones.

The flip side of that is that positive examples - like you OP - don't bring themselves to anyone's attention. Also, gypsy culture isn't taught in schools, as far as I'm aware, in the way that aspects of other cultures and religions are.

So people's only associations with these terms and communities are negative behaviours. That is tied up with old-fashioned prejudice, ignorance, lack of experience, to form a casual prejudice that is often not challenged in the way that other racism would be.

We had a large group of travelers camped out on the local playing field in spring. They were shockingly badly behaved, and delivered all of the cliches that I'd previously assumed were exaggerated. But I didn't personally hear anyone use racist language or assume that all travelers were the same. I can believe that it's probably the same few groups that keep getting moved on that cause trouble in a big vicious circle.

Im not going to say they bring it on themselves but I have a question. In a community apparently ruled by a strong hierarchy and a strict moral code, if the anti social behaviour is not approved of by the majority/leadership why does it continue?

--

The hierachy thing is bizarre but I can see it being useful. Again I do not know if this is all travellers or not (most likely not), but the group I had issues with...the guy who threatened to shoot my barman for not getting unlimited alcohol all night. The next day he was dragged in by the 'boss' (apparently usually the eldest man in the group) and made to apologize. Now, this guy was about 70 and the one causing trouble was a lot younger and IMO would have ate the older bloke for breakfast if it came to a fight, but the respect he had for him...it really was something else. When he was out with the others there was barely even a raised voice and they all seemed to worship him as a God or something. Only had problems when it was the 'others' out on their own.

The tone was incendiary and it was tarring an entire group.

Only in your opinion. More disagree than agree with you.

Most people's experiences of travellers is negative. Mostly becAuse you don't notice or remember the majority who live with consideration for others.
Does this make racist language OK? No.
Does it explain why people are angry enough to use it? Yes.

Oh and also, the basis of identity (as it is understood) in travelling behaviour, means that it wouldn't occur to lots of people that they might be speaking to a gypsy, traveller or someone with that heritage, while in a 'conventional' setting.

Dh worked on a permanent traveller site last week. He said it was "pristine" and "very well maintained". Just for balance.

"Don't shit on your own doorstep". No? Too soon?

i dont think gypsy is racist romany gypsies are a recogonised group .calling somone a gypo is the same as calling someone a paki .nasty and highly offensive .