Burkinis

[TaterTots]

We've all seen the fuss about them, but last night I saw my first one in 'real life', which got me thinking. Also today two of my friends were arguing about them on FB - one against any ban, the other claiming they are a symbol of oppression.

My view has pretty much always been that it's just a different type of swimsuit; no different to some women wearing bikinis and others wearing one-pieces. I'd always thought the bans in places like Cannes were all about the culture/assimilation issue; it hadn't really crossed my mind that the 'modesty' might be being forced on women.

What do you think?

Are thong and string bikinis banned? I find those to be oppressive and over-sexualised. Surely that's the influence of Western men? We've been influenced to wear things as sexy as possible for at least my entire life. Even then I'd still never support a ban, because of the women that chose to wear them because they like them.

These garments have no place in the UK or in France.

Papa please inform us which garments are suitable for UK and France. Let me guess.....everything except for "muslim" dress?

Please dont assume that those of us defending the burkini don't care about the treatment of Muslim women and girls, we just know that a ban of the burkini isn't helping them.

I'd love nothing more than for anyone oppressed into covering up to have the freedoms they need but it has to be approached in a way that doesn't segregate all Muslim women from us or cause them to lose out on even more.

I know you don't disagree with the ban so it's clear you know exactly what you're talking about. But there's lots of us on this thread that don't want the clothing banned but would also like to support it not "having" to be worn.

Bastard, goodwin points to you.

People are cheering for women not to be fucked over by having their ability to swim removed.

No one is cheerleading women to be fucked over. But, men dictating women dress modestly in some Islamic cultures is a separate arguement

whilst that is the case we should not ban modest swimming costumes, which enable women and children from those cultures, to enjoy swimming and the beach

It's an entirely misogynistic approach to an entirely misogynistic issue

AND it is blatant islamophobia, given that white western women can choose to dress modestly. It's totally alienating. And provocative

Truly baffling to me why Western women are cheerleading for women to be fucked over.

I am not interested in an "islamic lovefest" but I am interested in women being dictated to. Quite a few white british women have said that they would wear one, and that is their choice. A brown, muslim woman however must be a victim of oppression. The ole stereotyping is coming into full force here, the same way it did in the chinese olympian and jewish-woman-under-30-with-6-kids-on-a-train threads.

If a woman wants to cover herself for religious/health/dysmorphia or whatever other issues then I personally do not see the issue. We can psycho analyse things down to the bare bones but for me regarding the burkini issue, the right to wear a garment and have fun on the beach is a right, removal of that right is a woman being f*cked over.

We do not demonise against one religion, we set limits to political statements and creation of standards of what women need to wear in order to be able to get out of the house and do activities than anybody should be able to do without full coverage.
Pleaaaaaassseee, go see your jewish friends, if you know any, and tell them your analogy. I know the one next to me right now think your are a right hole.

Am also not interested in an Islamic lovefest. But not in an Islamic hatefest either.

AND it is blatant islamophobia, given that white western women can choose to dress modestly. It's totally alienating. And provocative

Yes exactly, I can use myself as an example. I've swam with my daughter on a boiling hot day on a UK beach dressed completely in black with only my hands, ankles and part of my face on show and not once did anyone even bat an eyelid

Personally, I feel oppressed by the fact that, as a Western womam, I am expected to reveal most of my body in a bikini, remove all body hair and be "beach body ready". I've been looking for a new one piece swimsuit and the ones on ASOS are all thoroughly pornified, with cut out bits that make them more revealing than some bikinis and some of them even looking like bondage gear

Oh please. This sort of exaggerated whining is so annoying. You only have to look round any beach or swimming pool in any Western country to see vast numbers of women have no difficulty whatsoever in ignoring this "oppression"

As for not being able to find a non revealing swimsuit - there are loads available. You might not like the style but there are loads of swim dress styles. Here is only 1 of many sites

Shop for Swim Dresses | Swimsuits | Womens | online at Swimwear365
www.swimwear365.co.uk/womens/swimsuits/swim-dresses/_/N-19Z1z141vjZ1z141vb

And I've never found any swimwear range which does include the shorts and tankini top option.

To claim you are " oppressed" as well is ridiculous compared to the situation of a woman having the choice of (a) wearing this ridiculous all covering garment or (b) not going swimming. Nigeria Lawson's little publicity stunt was pathetic too - as if she will make that her standard style from now on.

And I've never found any swimwear range which does not include the shorts and tankini top option.

Those dresses do a terrible job of proving your point because they're all extremely sexualised

I can't believe the feminists and liberals and free thinkers of Mumsnet are falling over themselves to support these female only garments. Are the men walking around with their faces covered, swimming whilst covered up? Of course not.

They're falling over themselves to support the right of women to wear what they want.

But I suppose it just shows how desensitised people are to the oversexualisation of women in general.

Whether it's right if they want or feel they have to wear that is a different matter.

Oh please OfaFrenchmind2 as if France is the pinnacle of equality for women. It's a far more misogynist society than the UK so no wonder telling women what to wear seems like a normal thing to do there.

We don't support the garment, we support the right to wear it. There's a very specific difference. If banning the burka worldwide would stop the abuse/oppression of women by men then I would say do it! But it won't. It won't help it will make their lives harder. The focus needs to be on those oppressing women not the poor women themselves.

Apparently we must be bigots of the highest order if we do not want to accept that woman liberation and lifestyle is making a big step forward with integral cover up...

But then, look at the latest thread on the olympics: big whine fest because apparently the women athlets, you know, those weak willed girls, do not cover up enough...

YourNewspaper very well put. That is the nuance of the debate that a lot of people seem to be missing.

So, if a Muslim woman can some how prove she is not forced to wear a burkini (maybe if she carries a letter from her husband?) and she prefers to wear it herself, would that be ok?

I don't agree with women being forced (it is forced through social expectation) to cover up and men can parade around as they want. The burkha is a form of oppression and I am not comfortable with it at all I think it should be banned.

I was thinking exactly what LTEve wrote as I read through this thread.

I've been visiting Egypt and UAE for 20 years or so now. In a beach resort 5-20 years ago there you'd see women completely covered just sat on loungers under umbrellas in the intensive heat. Or just wading in the pool and getting the bottom of their clothes wet. Both uncomfortable and not easily sanitary.

Now you see families interacting at the beach, women enjoying water time with their kids, swimming for their health and enjoyment, even competing in water events.

How is this not added freedom in people's lives? For sure the presence of women in these swimsuits is better than none if the worry is control.

Also for sure it's Islamophobia because I haven't seen one mention of Judaism on here (apart from the Modli link). These costumes on the Modli links are actually in the first instance designed for modest Jewish women. But yet it's called a Burkini?

Actually in Italy in a lot of public pools you get told to take off t shirts and non swimwear type clothing because these absorb too much water and are unsanitary. So the choice of the modesty swimsuit is better for pool usage than baggy t shirt and shorts.

I also don't understand why a Muslim husband looking at a woman in a bikini is so much more uncomfortable than anyone else's husband?