Burkinis

[TaterTots]

We've all seen the fuss about them, but last night I saw my first one in 'real life', which got me thinking. Also today two of my friends were arguing about them on FB - one against any ban, the other claiming they are a symbol of oppression.

My view has pretty much always been that it's just a different type of swimsuit; no different to some women wearing bikinis and others wearing one-pieces. I'd always thought the bans in places like Cannes were all about the culture/assimilation issue; it hadn't really crossed my mind that the 'modesty' might be being forced on women.

What do you think?

Ofa, but surely people realise it isn't in any way influencing the mind of the oppressive man and simply punishing the oppressed women

No, i expect my country, where I still vote, has the right to put limits to the influence of a mindset that separates so strongly women from men, and consider the woman body as something that needs to be hidden to be respectable.

So yes, you do think you have the right to dictate what women wear.

Forcing a woman not to cover up is just as bad as forcing them to cover up.

Do you also ban wetsuits?
Do you also ban long loose trousers and a top on the beach?
Do you ban long shorts and a rash vest on the beach?
Or are you only targeting Islamic women and ensuring that they are unable to be comfortable on the beach?

TBH, If I had the time I would happily go to Cannes and swan about the beach in a burkini.

There is something seriously wrong with a country that wants to dictate what women wear, be that enforcing modest attire or banning modest attire.

There's a women's only session at my local pool when they close all the blinds, there are no male life guards or men allowed.

Most of the people who come to this session wear burkinis.

Part of me thinks, great, ok if this is the only way they can swim.

But the other part of me thinks why the fuck are we pandering to this ridiculous nonsense?

You aren't forcing the men to accept that women can wear less clothing, you're forcing the women not to attend the beach. It's an infuriating consequence. And although it's great to want to stop any oppression of the female body you cannot garuntee that someone has been oppressed in the first place

has the right to put limits to the influence of a mindset that separates so strongly women from men

In terms of the burkini there is nothing separatist about it. Surely it allows muslim women to integrate and join the fun at the beach/in the pool? Islamophobes don't want to see the muslim women in their preferred dress and yet complain when they attend women only sessions as they are not integrating. Better to say it as it is and tell them to go back home.

I do not feel shame. Not on this, and will not change my position. Wetsuits are unisex and serve a purpose, loose trousers and shirts can protect from the sun (good luck swimming in these, btw). Burkinis are a statement. Well, the French mayors have made them.

*their own statement.

I've swung both ways on this issue but this article from Nassim Taleb decided me: while it's superficially liberal to 'tolerate' customs that are themselves quite intolerant, in the long run it is not a good idea if we want to preserve our liberal and tolerant society overall. The essay does a far better job than I could of explaining it but in essence it shows how for any given issue, where one group doesn't mind either way and another group won't budge, the group that won't budge will always end up winning the debate in the end. So unless we want to end up, eventually, with women being expected to cover up as standard in the UK we need to think very carefully about whether taking an absolutist stance on 'tolerance' is really worth the eventual sacrifice of that tolerance in practice.

So the poor women must just sit and watch their kids have fun and "tough shit" really? Even though it's something they were born into and likely will never leave? I can't understand the benefits of an outright ban.

I do not feel shame

Well you should feel ashamed that you think you have the right to dictate what a woman wears.

You are just as oppressive as the religion you are taking a stand against and that is disgusting.

I dont think there is actually anything wrong with them as such and i dont think they look odd,its just as one poster said,its the fact women need to be modestat all.
Ive just been abroad and saw a British MUslim couple. She was a white woman who was covered head to toe all day and wore a burkini in the pool.
He was an Asian man who walked round bare chested shorts and flip flops.

I mean I literally can't even address some of these posts because they are borderline ridiculous, how can people so brainwashed by islamaphobic media complain about 'oppression'

But what if they chose to wear it? I would wear one and feel far more comfortable. Swimming clothes make me feel very vulnerable and I have to wear actual clothes over the top. Not everyone I'm a burkini is being told they have to cover up

people are hiding behind the veil (pardon pun) of islamophobia to excuse the burqua/burkini. These garments have no place in the UK or in France.

And im not sure they should be banned. Im more of the mondset that i feel sorry that women frel the need to cover up at all. Not especially while swimming and not everyone feels comfortable baring all in a traditional swimsuit,but generally.
Is it because they feel uncomfortable with men looking at them?or their husbands dont want men looking at them?presumably its ok for women to look at Muslim men who are dressed 'normally'?

I can't comprehend how anyone can think that an item of clothing is oppressive. I'm sure there are many Muslim women who are oppressed, and who may be forced into wearing a Burkini, but that is the fault of the oppressor, not the clothing! If women are oppressed then make and enforce stronger laws on domestic abuse, don't ban an item of clothing that may be worn for any number of reasons.

Burkinis are a statement

Yes, a statement of "I'm a muslim and I want to join in on the fun that the rest of society are enjoying". I can see how that is a threat of national values

OT I completely agree with you. I was at a conference in Birmingham not long after the niqab ban was imposed. I met a woman there (who wore niqab) who had "fled" Belgium due to the ban and moved to a very insular, almost exclusively muslim area in Birmingham where she felt she had the freedom to wear it. She told me hoards of women were planning to do the same. These were mostly convert women, no oppression or coercion from male relatives etc.

"I love the mind boggling double standard of a Burkini being oppressive but having to shave your pubes, push up your tits and swim stiffly round so you don't lose your bikini is emancipation.

What ridiculous world do you inhabit?"

Yes!! I feel oppressed by those expecting me to sexualise myself for the viewing pleasure of others whilst simply wanting to have a swim. I'm a grown adult who has been bullied poolside by strangers for not having fully shaved pubic hair or legs. I'd chose to wear a burkini to escape those oppressors alone.

Shit luck for those women, it seems very callous I know, but I prefer that we show we do not accept this normalisation of the islamic dress and mentality now, so that maybe the future generations can feel more free to justify not having to cover up as this was not integrated in the mores of my country. As long as this way of thinking is tolerated in the wider society, it is very difficult to be able to reject them when you want to. We will not help islamic patriarchy keep girl children being brought up to think they have to cover their body integrally to be respectable.

It doesn't seem callous, it is callous. Those women, they deserve the same choices and enjoyment of life as the rest of us. I don't believe for a second that they're being made into martyrs against their will.

Not martyrs in the literal sense obviously, just lack of a better word.

I just find the whole ban in France reminiscent of the Nazi regime against the Jews in Germany. While you may find that ridiculous notion, it seems to me that laws against one religion being able to do something is the start of a slippery slope into outright ostracisation.

Bhurkinies are made of the same material as swimsuits or rash vests. I have no problem with them. I live in a beach area and see so many different people on the beach. Recently three coachloads of families arrived from Birmingham for a day out and it was bloody wonderful seeing the kids playing, mums fully dressed but still going into the water, dads organising beach games for the kids. Why on earth should the women have to wear a swimsuit to enjoy the beach?

Yesterday I saw grossly overweight men in tiny trunks, women in bikinis, kids in all in one swim suits which covered their whole bodies, I saw men in shorts and wife-beater vests with bright red faces and arms, I saw women in full saris in the water, I saw kids naked. In basis, I saw a snapshot of a multi cultural society all enjoying the same thing - warm weather, sand and the sea.

I hate that one religious group are basically being demonised in France. I have heard so many times that we should have learned from the Nazi regime in Germany. It seems we didn't.

Saudi Arabia demand you to be covered.
France demands you undress.

Both wrong. Both unreasonable and one has a shocking human rights record. How long before they both do?