Burkinis

[TaterTots]

We've all seen the fuss about them, but last night I saw my first one in 'real life', which got me thinking. Also today two of my friends were arguing about them on FB - one against any ban, the other claiming they are a symbol of oppression.

My view has pretty much always been that it's just a different type of swimsuit; no different to some women wearing bikinis and others wearing one-pieces. I'd always thought the bans in places like Cannes were all about the culture/assimilation issue; it hadn't really crossed my mind that the 'modesty' might be being forced on women.

What do you think?

Toast ahahah, yup, we are a terribly sexist society. Please expand?

It strikes me as slightly bonkers that perfectly functional clothing has been banned simply because it covers too much female flesh. How is this any different from countries who ban or would try to ban women from not covering up enough?

Yes, some women are most certainly pressured or brainwashed into 'modesty', but the clothes themselves are not the problem here. Plus, as others have said, the women who genuinely are being shamed into covering up will be the ones most disadvantaged by banning them.

I am just so sick of the way we control and fetishise women's bodies in a way that is simply not accepted for men. Just look at this list of things women have been told not to wear in just one year

Personally, the idea that women should dress 'modestly' leaves me cold. This makes me want to cry a bit. Whatever bells and whistles we attach to it, the implication is that I should accommodate my clothing to the expectations of men; that I should be dressing with men in mind. However, banning women from covering their hair and bodies in no way helps this.

So, those who want it banned because it is oppressive to women. Can you explain how the ban will stop, or lessen, the oppression?

Those dresses do a terrible job of proving your point because they're all extremely sexualised

No I think it proves some people cannot even look at any thing feminine or bare arms and legs or a short skirt without deciding it's sexualised or oppressive. There are several high necked styles which show no cleavage at all and are not fitted.

If you think they are "sexualised" because bare arms and legs are being shown I think you have a very big problem.

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Yes but Gingerbread what is then meant to happen to the women who had to wear them? It's like noone is considering the consequences. It would be traumatic. The men won't suddenly decide not to oppress them

One of my dear friends is Muslim, whenever I go to her house her husband says hello, is very polite but always looks down and doesn't overly engage with me. At first I thought he disliked me but DF explained in their religion men have to lower their gaze as do the women.

I've seen a tone of generalizing going on in this thread but to say that Muslim men leer more at women is really rude. I've been leered at by Muslim men (I assume they were), white men, black men. A lot of men leer. But the ones that follow their religion properly don't if it's not allowed.

My friend chooses to cover herself and made that choice way before she was married, her family were not Muslim.

People complain that Muslim women are oppressed but when they speak out and say they CHOOSE to wear clothing that covers as pp have, they're ignored and the same drivel about oppression is being spat out. Some women in abusive relationships aren't allowed to wear make up outdoors, shall we enforce a law where all women have to wear make up? It's ridiculous and yes this whole ban and anyone who supports it is islamophobic.

zzz

I've really enjoyed your posts on this thread

You've picked 3 dresses out of an extremely large list, if you can't see the media pushing the sexualisation of swimming costumes then we'll just end up arguing the point repeatedly, let's try not to derail too much and leave it at the fact we very much disagree on that point

I'd love nothing more than for anyone oppressed into covering up to have the freedoms they need but it has to be approached in a way that doesn't segregate all Muslim women from us or cause them to lose out on even more

Muslim women, in fact a lot of muslims are becoming more and more segregated from the rest of society, not less, the more accommodating we are being.

Islam is an extremely muscular ideology and the more concessions are afforded to it, the more it demands and pushes.

What will you do when the demand for a sex segregated beach comes ? What about those muslim women for whom a burkina is still too revealing ? Do they not count...shouldn't they also have the right to go swimming ?

Where and how will you draw the line ?

Again I will reiterate I am not in favour of the ban as it's now a measure after the horse has bolted. What would have worked is to enforce Western norms from the outset - i.e. from school and in public, so muslims had no choice but to adhere to equality and legality of the sexes. This coupled with a robust defence of why this is preferable and superior and criticism of any ideology that suggests otherwise.

This vigorous acceptance and defence of misogony with no accompanying criticism makes anyone doing so a useful idiot. The Islamists are rubbing their hands in glee.

Not too many Muslim perspectives with experience wearing one hear so I Houghton I would contribute. I have worn it in Dubai though it was a looser style than I would have chosen but it was on sale- head piece was detached. Previously I had always worn a t shirt and leggings when swimming . In terms of comfort it was quite heavy to be honest so I modes it by swapping to lycra leggings and would have cut of some excess cloth from the top but never bothered. But generally it felt quite freeing and I get cold in the water anyway so it helped a lot though I considered getting a proper rash vest to help more. Sometimes I used a swim cap instead of included head cover. Basically I felt able to modify according to my taste and comfort level. My husband and I swum regularly and no he never checked out other women in the pool or was disrespectful or judgemental towards them and nor was I. I also have a number of Muslim friends who have stopped following the traditional dress codes for various reasons and respect them for making their own considered choices. The only time I felt disrespected was by a french man mocking me to his young daughter in a language he thought I couldn't understand. As for modesty codes in general I think it's a very complex question that is not done justice by all the politicisation and hysteria on both sides and certainly it's a completely false idea of integration or liberalisation that would force the objects of this liberalisation further to the margins and increase exclusion. It's very political and Muslim women are easy and vulnerable targets in all this political point scoring and their voices are shockingly excluded.

You've picked 3 dresses out of an extremely large list, if you can't see the media pushing the sexualisation of swimming costumes then we'll just end up arguing the point repeatedly, let's try not to derail too much and leave it at the fact we very much disagree on that point

4 actually, without trying that hard. I find your attempt to portray this as sexualisation to support the ridiculous argument of "oppression" of Western women rather offensive. These styles are not "sexualised" unless you think bare arms and legs are sexualised.

Would you care to comment on whether a shorts and tankini top are oppressive and sexualised?

Apologies for all the typos- my autocorrect has a mind of it's own!

This vigorous acceptance and defence of misogony with no accompanying criticism makes anyone doing so a useful idiot.

I'm not sure about calling someone an idiot but I agree the vigorous acceptance and defence coupled with the offensive roping in of the we Western women are so oppressed as we have to wear tiny bikinis nonsense is very depressing.

Hi Soupdragon. I was suggesting that rather than segregate the actual people (by religious dress, smoking, dog ownership, breastfeeding young babies) we respect different needs and reserve areas for how people want to dress or behave. So if you need to cover up head to toe (skin condition or previous sunburn or religious reasons) that is the place you sit and you all cover up in that part of the beach. It is a bit of an avoidance of the deeper issues, but we just have to work with what we have until society catches up and we all learn to rub along together.
We already do it with naturists, smokers, dog owners, baby cafes. We could do a lot more for breastfeeding mums as this is still frowned upon in public.
I don't want a society where women feel uncomfortable. I expect they feel just as vulnerable watching bikini clad bathers as this amount of flesh on show with men around would be alien to them too.

warmastoast excellent post thank you and this point really stood out for me:
It's very political and Muslim women are easy and vulnerable targets in all this political point scoring and their voices are shockingly excluded.

People need to speak to, and listen to, the women affected by this. What is currently happening is the complete opposite, they are being dictated to and people with no knowledge of them, their culture, or their personal thoughts are ascribing motives to their choice of dress.
Which is about as far from standing up for the rights of women as you can possibly get. Unless excluding, silencing and patronising women is a feminist act all of a sudden.

Can anyone tell me why Muslim men dont have to dress modestly or cover up when swimming? Even a man in traditional Muslim dress is more exposed than woman in a bukini and especially the burkha.

Would I don a Burkini and march? Maybe. Would I be worried for our future? Yes.

I would look beyond awful in a Burkini!

I truly hope this rubbish doesn't filter through to our government but I have a feeling it may just do that! It's so hypocritical being a 'feminist', standing up for women's rights and against any form of oppression and then deciding a woman should not be able to wear an item of clothing she has chosen to.

How anyone can see sense in that is beyond me!

Lass I was obviously regarding the models, their poses and the photoshopping, fake tan, extensions, make up, fake breasts, etc. So please stop attempting to goad an argument designed for a separate thread. I don't think western women are as oppressed as Muslim women who are and never claimed that. Accept that the argument was shut down and have a good day.

in fact a lot of muslims are becoming more and more segregated from the rest of society, not less, the more accommodating we are being.

In what ways?

I lived in a muslim country where the christian minority is about 5%; roughly on par with the muslim population in the UK. Muslims and christians rub along just fine, they key being IMHO is that there is no emphasis on integration and assimilation the same way it has been impressed in the west. Christians have their own schools, their own curriculum, those who teach in government schools are exempt from teaching islamic studies. There are complete towns which are christian only.

Perhaps we need to learn something from this? This "you have to have the same values as me in order to fit in" attitude is a precursor to withdrawal, rather than integration. It seems to me that the burkini issue is symptomatic of a deeper problem.

There are also dress codes for men and many observant men will wear long shorts when swimming. It's a long subject to get into though and lots of reasons why women end up being the focus of all this pressure and attention from all sides. If it's any comfort to you some Muslim men do get criticised/ judged for not having proper beards or even some form of headcover though no Western liberal hearts bleed for them..

Accept that the argument was shut down and have a good day

What ? Shut down by you because I didn't bow to your superior insight?

Love to know why you know the models have fake breasts?

Your comments are getting very close to telling women what they should not look like or should not wear.

This is really simple - women should be allowed to choose how much or how little they want to wear - end of.
If that makes some people uncomfortable - then tough, there are lots of things I don't like to see but that is my problem.
All the nonsense about how it's oppressive ect - have you asked these women or assumed for them, because everyone knows Muslim women don't choose anything and just do as they are told - only non- Muslim women make their own decisions .
Some women choose to cover up more because they feel like it, because for them that is in accordance with THEIR interpretation of their religion - THEIR choice ergo why there is a wide variety of what Muslim women wear. Personal choice or is that not allowed of you are a Muslim ?

Yes to CurlyMoo I completely agree.

All this complaining about lack of integration is also so hypocritical.
Ok so you don't want women wearing burkas working in teaching etc, don't want them to wear what they want and go swimming with the rest of us...

Who's the oppressor again?

My Muslim friends wear burkhinis because they want to. Their husbands do not tell them to. It is entirely their decision. Anyone who thinks Muslim women are all oppressed should meet a couple of friend of mine, both hijab wearers, who are about as far from oppressed as it gets! They would verbally beat the crap out of anyone who tried!

I have bought burkhinis for them and other friends three times on holiday in Tunisia and Turkey. I would never wear them and I have had some interesting reactions to my buying them while dressed in a sleeveless shirt and shorts. I will continue to buy them for friends who want them as I still well up at the memory of a FB post from the first woman I brought one home for who said that she had never been swimming with her kids till "an angel" brought her the means to do so. That is what the Mayor of Cannes wishes to take away from these women- the right to visit a beach and swim, possibly with their children, in clothes that make them comfortable. All British women have that right. How can anyone support it being taken away? I find it interesting that our society views with suspicion people who don't want to show their bodies.