Burkinis

[TaterTots]

We've all seen the fuss about them, but last night I saw my first one in 'real life', which got me thinking. Also today two of my friends were arguing about them on FB - one against any ban, the other claiming they are a symbol of oppression.

My view has pretty much always been that it's just a different type of swimsuit; no different to some women wearing bikinis and others wearing one-pieces. I'd always thought the bans in places like Cannes were all about the culture/assimilation issue; it hadn't really crossed my mind that the 'modesty' might be being forced on women.

What do you think?

Thats islamic dress as a whole, not burkinis specifically, so no not wrong.

And even then, its not a good reason to ban women from wearing the clothing of their choice.

I disagree with niqab and burkinis. Seeing as men aren't required to wear them and whenever I see them in the uk the wife is completely covered whilst the husband is in western dress

I see it as anti equality and anti feminist.

Seeing as men aren't required to wear them and whenever I see them in the uk the wife is completely covered whilst the husband is in western dress See I doubt when people say things like this. DD's summer camp is opposite a mosque. So I'm seeing a lot of people hanging out. Yesterday I saw two men, one in 'modest' Western clothes and one wearing a long white robe, trainers and a hat. It was 32 degrees here yesterday.

And there are plenty of clothes women wear in the West and men don't. Let's ban skirts, high heels, make up and, for that matter, bikinis. And blonde hair dye.

Don't wear a niqab or burkini then.

Nothing feminist about forcing women out of their clothes either. Banning these things doesn't help any women, it doesn't make their lives better. It does the opposite.

I do strongly agree with mrsterryprachett that not being able to see faces in personal interactions is difficult. Not difficult to make youself understood but it IS a barrier to social connection- we scan people's faces all the time and read their expressions for intent and for reaction. Remove those signals it is harder to read and feel connected to a person- it takes more time and work and that could become a barrier for the person behind the veil.

Men aren't required to wear bikini tops or one piece swimsuits, these are worn by women only. Do you disagree with those as well Octopus?

MrsPratchett I also live near a very large mosque and have yet to see a man required to cover his face. Yes, for prayer times the men wear conservative dress, but the rest of the time most wear whatever they like and mostly western dress. The women are always covered up though, I can't believe covering yourself in black cloth when it's baking hot is a comfortable option tbh. Anyway, the men don't have to.

have yet to see a man required to cover his face. As I said earlier on this thread I find face-covering worrisome. But burkinis (the original point of this thread) don't involve that.

And it occurred to me that men are often expected to have beards, which women don't. And is a hot, annoying face-covering. Of sorts.

Yes, men are often required to have beards, and some have no choice in it at all.

As westerners, we read each other's faces to assess EVERYTHING: is she friendly, or foe, a safety or a risk? Was that a smile or a scowl. Am I at risk or is this ok?

Cover your face and you hide yourself away. My sister teaches at a university in the ME and she has a few students who cover their faces (even in an all-woman class) and she says she simply can't engage with the students who cover their faces.

I've had many covered women in Saudi approach my infant daughter to say hello and every time, they have raised their veils to say hello. Why? Because they know that a black, veiled face - to an infant would be scary. They know that they can only communicate humanity is to show their faces. Infants and toddlers know this. Approach a toddler with a veiled face and they will yell and holler.

Our faces express ourselves. Why would you want to erase yourself. Or worse...allow someone to erase you?

It's your face and expression of yourself. There is no left-ist or neo-liberal excuse for not allowing a woman to show her face.

Would it be ok if a nun in full head gear and long covered dress remarkably similar to traditional Muslim dress strolled along the beach - or is that ok because she's Catholic.
Personally I think this is cultural and discriminatory, I think the French have been through a lot but decisions like this are showing the cracks - the fuckers are winning, the hate is spreading.

Let's reiterate at this point that burkinis do not cover the face so talk of face coverings are irrelevant.

Let show them. A wetsuit, burkini and a stinger suit. One of these is not like the other because it's banned.

"Nothing feminist about forcing women out of their clothes either. Banning these things doesn't help any women, it doesn't make their lives better."

Helping those women might not be possible - short of pulling them away from their oppressive families, if they are being forced to cover up.

However it is possible to prevent the hiding away of women to be commonplace and 'normal', accepted in a "some people believe this, some people believe that" sort of way. That is indeed a step in the right direction, to make the lives of future generations of women better. That was what France is trying to do with their burqa ban, and I suppose with this burkini ban, as well.

As I said before, I know that is not the way of UK multiculturalism, but French people are very much against the idea of this sort of ideology flourishing in their country. If you don't like it and want to live on a place where men can't see women, there are lots of other places to live in.

If you don't like it and want to live on a place where men can't see women, there are lots of other places to live in. But we can surely discuss the merits or lack of!

I feel uncomfortable with the way the word "modest" is being taken over. My dd is a very modest young woman, however, she does wear a bikini and doesn't hide her hair. She is still a modest person and no one can tell me otherwise

The word has a particular meaning when it comes to clothing etc. Your opinion on that meaning is irrelevant. Your DD may be a modest person, but if she is wearing a skimpy bikini she is not modestly dressed. That is using factual definitions of words, not opinions

Well there are 2 meanings of "modest". One is a good thing to - not proud, not boastful, not blowing your own trumpet about how clever or good you are. "Modest" in this sense can be seen objectively.

Then there is the poisonously misogynistic meaning of requiring women to wear "modest clothing". This is nothing more than an arbitrary, subjective definition applied according to which culture or religion or even century the subjective viewer lives or lived in.

It leads to the sort of poisonously misogynistic and arbitrarily subjective judgement that the poster's daughter is not "modestly dressed".

That is indeed a step in the right direction, to make the lives of future generations of women better. That was what France is trying to do with their burqa ban, and I suppose with this burkini ban, as well

You don't justify the wholesale trampeling of womens rights with the notion that it might make future womens lives better. You don't get to tell women: hey, we're making YOUR life worse today, but fuck you, it's too late to force you into our notions of how you should be, we're just using you to mould the future women.

That is using factual definitions of words, not opinions

No Hedda you are the one who is trying to make out that arbitrary subjective opinions are facts.

Whether a girl wearing a bikini is not "modestly dressed" is your opinion

I would not say it is irrelevant. It's your opinion, it says a lot about you that you hold it and it's an opinion I would not give the time of day to, but it is absolutely not a fact.

You don't get to tell women...

But yet you take it upon yourself to tell another poster her daughter is not "modestly dressed" if she is wearing a bikini. Hypocritical or what?

When in Rome and all that!! I follow the rules/traditions of every country I visit or choose to live in. The world is a huge place. If you don't like the French rules then maybe best not to live there. You choose where to live so choose wisely!! Countries in the Middle East who let women wear what they like are only in it for the money/political gain so are actually ruining it for the religious types. Doesn't mean we should compromise for them!!

Nothing hypocritical about defining a word. Its not my definition, it is what it is.
Difference is I don't care what the pps dd wears. I'm not trying to control anyone and I'm certainly not defending this cultural imperialistic shit, like you.

I think women should be able to wear whatever they want, whether that be a Burkina or a bikini.

Obviously the Burkina can be used as a tool of oppression but I can also see the appeal of being fully covered. Many styles of bikini seem styled to show off as much skin as possible to make women look attractive/ sexy to men - they're not designed for comfort or practicality so they could be seen as much a tool of a male-centric culture as a Burkini.

And there are plenty of clothes women wear in the West and men don't. Let's ban skirts, high heels, make up and, for that matter, bikinis. And blonde hair dye.

Men do wear skirts and dye their hair blonde. Rarely, but it happens.

Maybe banning high heels and make up would not be such a bad idea. I do feel women here are oppressed by those in that it takes quite a lot of guts to never wear either.
Would be quite interesting to see how a ban would influence statistics on women having accidents in high heels, foot health, etc.