Burkinis

[TaterTots]

We've all seen the fuss about them, but last night I saw my first one in 'real life', which got me thinking. Also today two of my friends were arguing about them on FB - one against any ban, the other claiming they are a symbol of oppression.

My view has pretty much always been that it's just a different type of swimsuit; no different to some women wearing bikinis and others wearing one-pieces. I'd always thought the bans in places like Cannes were all about the culture/assimilation issue; it hadn't really crossed my mind that the 'modesty' might be being forced on women.

What do you think?

So why aren't job interviews just done on the phone?

Some are Nigel.

Shoot me know...but it's much easier to chat to an uncovered Muslim women if you can see facial expressions. There is some really cool science about faces. There really are very important reasons why seeing faces is important. Babies, for example, recognise and process faces massively ahead of any other information. We 'know' some facial expressions hard-wired, we don't have to learn it. We are really hard-wired to process each others faces.

Now that doesn't mean we should forcibly uncover women's faces but to pretend there is nothing 'special' about covering them is disingenuous.

Ok
Sorry if I derailed. I do think the bathing machines are neat though. Very interesting.

So why aren't job interviews just done on the phone? confused

Some are. I've had one on the phone.

Speaking to someone with a covered face might make you uncomfortable. But your comfort level should have no bearing on how other women are allowed to dress. The two should not be related in anyway.

I agree. It is hard though because I think that a culture that requires covering of the faces of women is proscribing something contrary to something very basic about humans.

Covering hair, knees, ears, shoulders or whatever has been tried by various cultures, both sexes and throughout history. It's all just the usual gender bullshit.

Covering faces makes it massively more difficult to connect and be connected to. It's not that it makes me uncomfortable, it's that I find it hard to communicate. I randomly smile and start conversations with people. All. The. Time. I'm that weirdo. So I smile at someone vaguely, they smile back, I judge what level of smiliness they are exhibiting and base my level of innane chatter on that. It is often women in headscarves. Because where I live they may well be newcomers, I am too so there's a chat right there. But, although I smile at women in niqabs I have to interpret eye-smiliness and that is tough. I can't tell if they are profoundly pissed off with my chatting, which is very easy to judge if faces are uncovered.

All my problem but I do wonder if the cultural expectation is one that cuts women off.

I'm coming back to this thread after yesterday. So much has been said, there's not much more to say except that for every poster defending my right as a Muslim to wear a burkini - thank you! Its so nice to see so many people listen to us when we say WE are choosing it (I'm not speaking for all Muslims, but I am speaking for myself and the other Muslims on this thread who said they choose to wear it) and to defend our right to choose.

Vivre et laisser vivre!

(Live and let live!)

I certainly am not islamaphobic. i have had several Muslim friends, still have.
I've gone to Friday prayers, EID celebrations, Muslim weddings, mosques etc

Muslim men friends some of whom have been doctors have always treated me in a friendly and respectful way.

(if you speak french)....

Burkinis are a symbol of man's power over women.

What crap you have to be ashamed of your natural skin and body.

New shit, different day.. Religion. Catholics last century, Muslims this one

Let's get rid of religious bullshit, please.

Banning burkinis is a symbol of other mens power over women. It's all the same thing, telling women what to wear, telling them what not to wear. It's all coercion, its all oppression.
Don't kid yourself you're any less of a cultural imperialist.

Maybe we should ask men (maybe the french mayor) what they think we should be wearing, what they find acceptable.

Women are given all kinds of reasons to be ashamed of their natural skin and body, religious or not. Not all women cover due to "shame".

No woman should be forced to wear a smaller swimsuit by any man. Is that really what secularism is about these days?

Re Sudan you might be surprised at the level of flexibility you know- not a liberal paradise of course but I wouldn't make comfortable assumptions based on indirect information. Plenty of outspoken activists who campaign against the (pre-islamic, pharaonic) practise of fgm too, some as a mandatory element of their campus duties.

Modesty is a choice too
The teens who don't want prom dresses displaying their cleavage but are teased because they don't look like the latest TOWIE reject by their peers are also been discriminated against.

I have Christian friends whose brand of Christianity expects women to dress modestly in the sense shoulders shouldn't be bare and cleavage shouldn't be on display in an in your face manner. It doesn't stop some of them looking amazingly glamorous .

I don't see anything wrong with anyone dressing how they choose , some choose to keep the traditions of their upbringing others choose to rebel and be more or less modest than their upbringing, neither is wrong so long as it is free choice.

Mayim Bialik from The Big Bang Theory always wears modest clothing. Poor oppressed Mayim with her PhD in neuroscience, successful LA career and millions in the bank. She must just be unthinkingly doing what some patriarch tells her. I mean, it couldn't possibly be her choice, could it?

I feel uncomfortable with the way the word "modest" is being taken over. My dd is a very modest young woman, however, she does wear a bikini and doesn't hide her hair. She is still a modest person and no one can tell me otherwise.

I feel uncomfortable with the way the word "modest" is being taken over. My dd is a very modest young woman, however, she does wear a bikini and doesn't hide her hair. She is still a modest person and no one can tell me otherwise

The word has a particular meaning when it comes to clothing etc. Your opinion on that meaning is irrelevant. Your DD may be a modest person, but if she is wearing a skimpy bikini she is not modestly dressed. That is using factual definitions of words, not opinions.

I grew up in various Gulf states and when I was first there 35 years ago the very very few women I saw in the sea went in fully dressed in their normal clothes plus burka- it looked uncomfortable and restrictive and every year people drowned. The Burkini has been a revelation in those countries in terms of women accessing water parks and beaches- going in the water with their kids instead of being marooned on the beach. It is a pragmatic answer for women operating in cultures where covering up is the social norm and where a swim suit just isn't an option. If you ban it those women simply won't have the access they do now and the people who will suffer will be the women themselves- they are not going to shrug and say - oh well I'll just bung my cossie on. I lived for a while in a conservative (Christian) part of Africa and there not wearing a petticoat under your long skirt was shocking , but you could leave a boob out after breastfeeding and no one batted an eyelid. I've conformed to social dress norms in countries all over the world- including in Europe, covering my shoulders to visit a church in Italy, and in uk by eg not getting my arse out in Tescos.

"No woman should be forced to wear a smaller swimsuit by any man. Is that really what secularism is about these days?"

That's exactly what it's about, Dione. You got it in one

The word has a particular meaning when it comes to clothing etc. Your opinion on that meaning is irrelevant. Your DD may be a modest person, but if she is wearing a skimpy bikini she is not modestly dressed. That is using factual definitions of words, not opinions

My opinion is not irrelevant. I have looked up modesty in an online dictionary. It talks about the quality of not drawing attention to your abilities and achievements. It then says in relation to clothes the following:

modesty noun [ U ] (CLOTHES/BEHAVIOUR)
old-fashioned the quality, in women, of dressing or behaving in a way that is intended to avoid attracting sexual interest

and my opinion, which is not irrelevant at least to me and my DD, is that when my DD wears a bikini on the beach she is NOT trying to attract sexual interest. She wants a tan. Which may or may not be a good idea, but that's another issue!

Not because of burkini it isn't

Wrong, women who wear Islamic dress are significantly more likely to suffer Vitamin D deficiency and it's on the rise amongst Muslim women in the UK.

wikiislam.net/wiki/Health_Effects_of_Islamic_Dress

musicmania - Vitamin d deficiency is a big problem in the Middle East for both sexes including elite male athletes- the sports academy in Doha have done some studies on their sportsmen. Traditional dress for men in the Gulf - a long robe and head dress- also covers nearly all the skin. In places like Saudi it is still very much not the norm to see men in shorts/ t shirts . There was a study that linked a rise in MS to the cultural revolution in Iran and the vitamin D levels dropping- sorry haven't got links but it is on google scholar- so yes the way people dress can have health implications. In the West there are also issues as we are largely inside most of the year.