Burkinis

[TaterTots]

We've all seen the fuss about them, but last night I saw my first one in 'real life', which got me thinking. Also today two of my friends were arguing about them on FB - one against any ban, the other claiming they are a symbol of oppression.

My view has pretty much always been that it's just a different type of swimsuit; no different to some women wearing bikinis and others wearing one-pieces. I'd always thought the bans in places like Cannes were all about the culture/assimilation issue; it hadn't really crossed my mind that the 'modesty' might be being forced on women.

What do you think?

Oh and I responded to the nonsensical point someone else made trying to make out that Western women were more oppressed. Are you saying that post should have got a free pass?

Lass No "shut down" because I very clearly stated it wasn't an argument I wanted to have yet you're still goading it. Why can't you accept a difference in opinion? My issue is with sexualisation in media and advertising which isn't relevant to the thread so i shut the argument down. Twice. I don't think I'm superior maybe you should calm down a tad.

My Muslim friends wear burkhinis because they want to. Their husbands do not tell them to. It is entirely their decision

Unlike Western women who according to many on MN are incapable of making up their minds about what they wear as they are so oppressed by the patriarchy

This from YourNewspaper

The focus needs to be on those oppressing women not the poor women themselves.

Your comments are getting very close to telling women what they should not look like or should not wear.

No they aren't. You're just trying to direct the conversation that way to validate your point. If women chose to look like that them good for them, I'm extremely modified myself I chose not to judge anyone. I have a problem with the expectation that those things are necessary to advertise a practical item of clothing. But yet again it isn't relevant to this thread!

It is clearly a sign of oppression and also a religious symbol, take form that what you will. However if the person chooses to wear one then that is fine with me. I think France is going down the wrong route in this as its plainly obvious that ISIS does not represent any kind of religious agenda. many Muslims were killed in the Nice attacks and many more everyday in middle eastern countries. All France is doing is seeking to create more divisions in a world where we should be opening up and being more inclusive, they are playing into these extremists hands.

Yournewspaper Why don't you address your comments to the poster who created this diversion? Or was she allowed a free pass? She posted a comment I thought was utter rubbish.

And by the way, you don't get to dictate what can or can't be discussed.

On the one hand we have posters claiming women are freely choosing to wear burkinis but on the other hand posters claiming Western women are being oppressed ( by the vast range of swimwear available to Western women)

Yes but I was dictating what I personally didn't want to discuss and after someone wishes you well and says they don't want to discuss something and further derail a thread it seems reasonable to me to respect that.

I don't agree with the previous poster either but as you'd addressed those concerns already it didn't need reiterated by myself. Especially as I could understand generally what she was trying to say about not being pleased with the expectations put on her. However nowhere near comparable to the current topic.

I don't agree with the previous poster either but as you'd addressed those concerns already it didn't need reiterated by myself

You gave no indication at all you disagreed with her; quite the contrary in fact given your response.

Personally, they make me feel uncomfortable, but I don't think that's a reason to ban them outright.

I don't like the implication that I'm immodest or being judged for not conforming to that dress. But the world doesn't have to cater to me.

I think burkinis/burkhas are a serious red herring when we're discussing equality. There is something illogical about punishing women because we think they are being oppressed.

Those swim dresses posted last are awful - even the supposedly "modest" ones. I know I'm a little overweight but I'd not be comfortable in something that short exposing my lovely wobbly white thighs. I haven't been swimming for yonks but I've been considering something very burkini-like.

In case y'all hadn't realised, I'm in the "everyone should be allowed to wear what they want" camp, and there's a growing market around the world for more modest swimwear because women are uncomfortable wearing tight or revealing items of clothing just so they can exercise or splash around in the water. Not just brown people or immigrants or even just super-religious folks but white atheist ladies.

Also not sure why a few pp seem to be of the opinion that being modest is a bad thing.

Oh and I responded to the nonsensical point someone else made trying to make out that Western women were more oppressed

Some selective interpretation going on there. Where did I say "more oppressed"? My point was that our so-called Western freedoms entail a cultural expectation that women will expose the majority of their flesh in order to go swimming. I fail to see what is so enlightened and feminist about a society that is increasingly sexualising women's swimwear. I never said one extreme was better or worse than another, only that I personally would prefer to wear a burkini than some of those crotch-flashers that pass for swimwear these days.

Telling women what they can't wear is misogynistic, whether it's a bikini or a burkini. I note that none of you who oppose the burkini and claim that it's oppressive to Muslim women have done any of the Muslim women posting on this thread so much as the simple courtesy of listening to their views when all of them have clearly stated that they choose to wear it. Obviously you are so concerned about their rights and their oppressed situation that it doesn't even occur to you to actually acknowledge their views.

I'm white and not religious. Until this summer, I hadn't been swimming in very many years due to self-consciousness about my body and my old self-harm scars. This summer, I went swimming wearing one of these - www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301999808290

It was amazing. I had such a good time - but if the choice had been to reveal parts of my body I didn't want to or not go swimming? I'd have stayed out of the pool.

I can't see why women shouldn't have the choice to wear a bikini, a burkini or anything in-between that they're comfortable with. It's not the place of any government to tell women what to wear - that we object to Saudi Arabia et al. doing this isn't a justification for the West to do the same in reverse.

I'm disappointed none of you have embraced my call for all swimming suits to be banned. I would support a Speedo ban. And a ban on men walking around shirtless while women don't. And a ban on people getting burnt to fuck and offending my eyes with their red, sore skin. And a ban on whatever that idiot from Stringfellows used to wear. Probably a good job I'm not a mayor...

To the French poster, I think it was a FRENCH man that said, "je déteste ce que vous écrivez, mais je donnerai ma vie pour que vous puissiez continuer à écrire". I detest women being expected to dress in a certain may by men but I defend their right to dress how they are dressing. Banning something because you don't like it didn't used to be a French standard. It is now and it's very sad.

I love the mind boggling double standard of a Burkini being oppressive but having to shave your pubes, push up your tits and swim stiffly round so you don't lose your bikini is emancipation.

It's really only a double standard if a specific person/poster believes both these to be true.

I choose not to swim rather than deal with the pressure to wear a swimsuit and then be told my body is disgusting if I do.
How is this better?

LordRothermere What you said was Personally, I feel oppressed by the fact that, as a Western womam, I am expected to reveal most of my body in a bikini, remove all body hair and be "beach body ready"

Which serms a lite odd given the huge variation in types and styles of costume , body shapes and sizes and hairy and hairless bodies on display at beaches and swimming pools.

Who is "expecting you to reveal your body in a bikini? " That is a straw man argument. I've never owned a bikini in my life.

There is a huge range of options available. I'm genuinely puzzled at the way the burkini is being talked up as a good thing.

There is of course the usual hypocrisy which always appears on this type of thread. Women choose to cover up, unlike Western women who are so brainwashed into wearing a bikini they are incapable of choosing.

love the mind boggling double standard of a Burkini being oppressive but having to shave your pubes, push up your tits and swim stiffly round so you don't lose your bikini is emancipation

More exaggeration. As if what you describe is compulsory and all Western women fall for it.

I'd love to wear a bikini again, but scars on my abdomen prevent me from doing so, though I really shouldn't give a fig. I like the sun, warmth, sea, swimming in salt water, sand, getting in an out, enjoying the positive ions that is the seaside.

Just once I felt oppressed, seriously, when at the beach (Greece). A man, let's call him Silver Fox, in a very, very skimpy costume, stood in front of me, blocking out my sun. I felt it was deliberate. When I looked up, he turned around and stood with his hands on his not very well defined waist. My then boyfriend was swimming in the sea at the time. When he returned the man walked off. To his family, up the other end of the beach. Made me shiver in 30 degree heat.

I don't get this whole "modesty" thing. I think modesty is a character trait and just because you cover up a load of skin doesn't make you a modest person.

There are two separate but overlapping issues here.

1. Should people be free to wear whatever they like?

1. What attitude should our Society adopt towards a culture that we consider oppressive and pernicious?

Re 1: The fact is that we place a lot of limits on our freedoms as the price for being a member of society. That's the deal we all sign up to (wittingly or not). If you don't like the deal you are at liberty to campaign for change (if you're in a liberal democracy, that is). If you really cannot tolerate the deal, you're free to move to a society that suits you better (if you can find one!)

Re: 2: I consider the burqa (and burkini) a symbol of a cultural oppression of women that makes Western societies look like feminist nirvana. My dislike of it trumps my libertarian beliefs. This is one cultural difference I cannot accept - any more than I accept female genital mutilation as an acceptable cultural difference.

Any woman who is oppressed by male relatives is very unlikely to be at a beach swimming in a burkini. She would be much more likely to be sat at the beach covered up in baggy clothes watching her male relatives enjoying themselves. To state that burkinis are worn by oppressed woman is ridiculous, such a woman would not be allowed to wear a form fitting garment. This ban has been introduced to create further division. Why should a man dictate what a woman wears - that is the real oppression