To push DD to apply to Cambridge?

[AllieinWonderland]

So I'm relatively new to posting on mumsnet, but have been a long time lurker, so if I mix up the lingo a bit then apologies!
DSS1 got 9As 3As at GCSE, 4 high As at AS level, and is on track to exceed his AAA offer for Oxford.
Oldest DD achieved 13A*s 2As and a B at GCSE (the B in music - she had a panic attack in the exam and it was on a tape so she was unable to get the time back) and is looking on track for 5 high As at AS level in French, English lit, history, physics, and art. She is seemingly good at almost everything (triathlons at county level and has previously played and trained younger children in cricket and basketball, plays the cello, the xylophone, and the clarinet, won a local photography competition, always gets lead roles in an amateur dramatics group and solos in choir) yet has always struggled severely with self esteem, and focuses on the things she is bad at: sees her B in music as the end of her chance of going to good universities, can't bake or cook to save her life despite much encouragement and teaching, is awful at tidying (she is happy to do it but ends up gradually making more of a mess and gets flustered. Again, I've tried forms of 'teaching' and noting has worked). These latter two issues have led her to thinking she needs to stay at home for university and she is driving me mad by saying she'll go to the local university, which is really not a very good one at all, and the only others she'll consider are those with offers of "BBC" or below.
She has finally settled on studying English literature, and I took charge and booked her on open days at Warwick, Edinburgh, Cambridge, and Durham, and her school took the 'Oxbridge' candidates to Oxford for a trip. She hated Durham, didn't like Edinburgh, thought Oxford and Warwick were okay, but loved Cambridge.
In spite of this she is refusing to consider applying, says it's a waste of an application.
I don't want to push her, but I do want her to apply because she clearly loved it and is more than capable. All of her teachers have been saying it since before I can remember, and she reads almost constantly.
Aibu to try and change her mind?
Sorry for the lack of coherence here, my mind a bit of a mess!

I think everyone is different and a lot of people are seeing their own experiences in your daughter but none of us know her.

The one thing that struck me is that any young person who is losing emotional control on a weekly basis in a sympathetic and supportative environment probably isn't ready to live away from home just yet as without that support they are likely to become more frequent and more damaging.

AllieinWonderland Just an observation, for some reason i missed quite a few posts before i read this thread late last night.,

Seems you and DD have had a very traumatic time for a girl to have discovered a suicide is a horrendous thing to cope with so now wonder she has some problems with that and the other issues. You do seem to be under a lot of stress too and i just wonder if you are receiving any help for you?.

I can understand the apply for Cambridge thing and other posters their disdain at that notion but i get the impression it's what your daughter wants so to do and despite it all perhaps she should try. If she does then well, if not at least shes tried and no shame at all failing that.

As to the other things you mentioned like cooking cleaning and all the "hotel" matters shouldn't worry DD2 has come back from a Russell group uni couldn't cook before she went but managed to learn a bit, and as messy and untidy now as she was before but she had a very good time there and really enjoyed it all.

I do wonder also if it might be an idea from your daughter to live out for a while not overseas but perhaps a gap year in the UK it might prove to her that the can manage OK?. As to panic attacks two mates of mine suffered those but after time managed, one seeming had a bad one one day and was so annoyed with himself he said sod this its not taking over my bloody life and nothings happened since so no shame or otherwise on with with those.

One things certain whatever you do will be wrong in someone's eyes and what you are dong isn't an easy part of parenting!.

Best to you and her anyway:-)

BTW sorry but i offended a poster by my reference to "Ladies" Not all my fault to address a group of females as Ladies, that and lots of other things were drummed into me by my formidable 1878 born gran and a maiden aunt was just as forceful so not entirely my fault;!.

I'll try to remember in future. OK! Peace;?..

Why do you say that Newcastle would be an 'easier' university? It asks for AAA to study Eng Lit- the same as Oxford. This is very misleading to your daughter; no degree is 'easy' and if she feels that she cannot cope with rejection, then perhaps uni isn't the best route, despite her academic capabilities.

He did have one big panic attack in his final weeks of completing Masters, but then we all have a melt down at some point. Your housemates pick you up, it is honestly quite incredible the bond you get in such a small time period.

I lived with a girl who developed anorexia and severe OCD during the three years we lived together. It was an absolute nightmare for her and for us-my other two housemates and I had no idea what to do to help her as eighteen year olds who'd never experienced anything looks that before and had no idea what to do for the best. Unfortunately she deteriorated until she was admitted to a psychiatric unit.

Saying that housemates can pick you up when you're suffering from a mental illness rather than a bit of pre exam nerves or sadness at being dumped by your boyfriend is naive at best.

"Your housemates pick you up, it is honestly quite incredible the bond you get in such a small time period."

Really? Two big things wrong with that. 1) you get a bond- if you're lucky, and 2) do you really think other 18 year olds should have to deal with a friend's mental health crisis? Or are In any position to do so?

Hope today was a good day for her results.

I would sit her down and have a long chat about this. It may be that she fears the stress and pressure, but would like to give it a go in her heart of hearts, but lacks the self-esteem to go for it.

It may be that she's actually not that keen for other sensible reasons, which is perfectly legitimate.

But it sounds actually like she has some issues with leaving home and striking out on her own, and these need to be confronted. You do NOT want to end up with one of those anxious, dependent children who can't leave home despite the fact that they are nearly 40!! It is neither healthy nor conducive to happiness to live that way - and if a bit of psychological support now can help, I would urge you to provide it now. It is far better for her to go to a university a distance away and learn how to be independent than to study from home and end up terminally unable to leave.

It concerns me a bit that she feels under so much pressure, with regard to the music and the tidying. The expectations on her young shoulders seem incredibly high, whether they are self-imposed, or coming from school or family. I wonder if she needs a bit of time to relax and have some fun, and to experiment creatively a bit more? I see a lot of highly able students coming into university these days who are frightened of their own shadows, and once you are at degree level and above, this is a terrible handicap. They end up producing diligent but ultimately boring work, and losing out on the chance to really push their limits intellectually and creatively. It is very difficult to get them to be critical and questioning, because they are so absorbed in learning bullet points of information and regurgitating the same arguments everyone else is making. It's a shame.

if panic attacks only started after and can be directly traced to a significant event/trauma then chances are that therapy (targeted therapy) will be very successful...so that therapy should be sought.

dont ignore it as "something to live with" .

OP, I don't know why people are giving you such a hard time! Nobody knows much about mental health until they are forced to find out (in the UK certainly) because education levels on MH are so pitifully poor.

Having said that, I think you have an unhelpfully low opinion of therapy (possibly justified given your experiences to date). However it can be very VERY effective as I have cause to know having been treated for PTSD spectrum issues.

you said I just don't really see how talking to unfamiliar people will help her, but this actually makes as much sense as saying you don't think doctors could help with a physical problem because they are strangers!

When you find a suitable therapist (and I will freely admit that can take several attempts!) they will build trust, and develop a theraputic relationship. They won't be strangers, they will be trusted HCP's with the specialist knowledge and skills to help your daughter to become well again.

You also said you don't know why it was your DD that was affected most profoundly. Well the thing about the human brain is that it is tremendously complex and each one is unique. Why do some people have OCD? Why are some bipolar?

Your DD's brain processed her trauma in a different way to her siblings and to you. That is because she is different to you! PTSD is a failure of the brain to process memory normally during trauma. Some peoples brains won't do that, regardless of the stress applied. Others will miss fire with very little provocation at all....because we are all different. Some people with then slowly adjust, because their coping strategies help them to recover. When PTSD persists, it is because the persons coping strategies are failing to address the issue, and maybe even compounding it.

Given your DD is still suffering so long after the event, we can probably conclude that self-righting isn't going to happen and that her ways of dealing with the PTSD are making things worse. So at some level she needs to retrain her response to her anxiety/flashbacks etc.

This is a very well defined process akin to physiotherapy in many ways. It is real medicine and it certainly more than 'talking to a stranger'!

Please do educate yourself properly on the available therapies, and once you begin to believe they are real medicine based on real medical efficacy trials, you may begin to pass that confidence onto your DD - who will need a lot of support to take the first steps towards getting well.

APPLY!!!!

TRY READING THE THREAD!!!!

Try not shouting ......it might also we useful if you identified which poster you are shouting at if you must shout

Step back. Breathe. Allow your DC to do the same.
A year out might be the best option.
Look at other universities. An Oxbridge degree isn't a guarantee of happiness. Think about York or University of East Anglia or Essex for English

Try not shouting ......it might also we useful if you identified which poster you are shouting at if you must shout

It was obviously aimed at the PP who used caps and multiple exclamation marks and offered absolutely nothing of value to the thread

OP there's a lot to say about this situation. From the POV of a university lecturer, your DD does not sound ready for university. She doesn't sound healthy enough - we have a policy at my place that students are 'fit to sit' - and this can mean mentally fit as well as physically fit. If she broke her leg, neither she nor her coaches would expect her to participate in her cross-country running, would they?

Ditto for the trauma she is clearly still processing with added PTSD, poor lamb.

I'm at a top10 university, and our students need to be pretty fit, in mind & body, to thrive. They can survive, but thriving is what we - and they - want.

So, if you can try to have her do a gap year. Maybe at home, working a simple, no demands job, where she'll meet lots of different people, and realise that there are ups & downs in everyone's lives, and resilience is when we ride them out without too much harm to ourselves or others.

She sounds as though she's coping but only just. I've taught young women like her. THere's a long essay to write about the particular pressures on high-achieving, lovely, attractive, nice girls like her. I won't write it here, but I will say that I think what I see in this current generation of high-achieving, lovely, attractive, nice girls is that they are getting the worst of both worlds at the moment.

We live in a patriarchy - a society that values men & "masculine values" much higher than women & "feminine values." Most young men don't feel that they have to deserve their very existence by proving how successful & excellent they are at everything. Whereas, young women like your daughter seem to feel that the only reason they deserve to exist is if they are good - good people (ie not mentally unhealthy) slim, attractive, clever, successful at school.

It's people-pleasing & high-achieving, mixed in with the faux-feminist rhetoric that you can 'have it all.'

I know that from my own experience, but I was given the analytical tools of feminism to help me see that it wasn't about me as an individual, but about a social system which positioned me in a way that made some things far far more difficult to achieve than the equivalent young man.

That's the theory, anyway. But it has individual impacts, and it sounds as though your daughter has experienced those, plus severe personal trauma - a perfect storm.

She needs to step off the treadmill. Then she might see what she really needs and values to nurture herself as an entire human being.

As an English Lit. person myself, I understand your dismay at her thinking about aiming low. Her results so far suggest she would absolutely fly at a tough university in the company of other bright, interested, committed students. And staff. I know it's unpopular to say this, but she just won't get that to the same degree or level at a non-research intensive university.

It may be that Cambridge is not right for her, but there are other universities with excellent English departments & excellent reputations. Other posters have mentioned most of them here - I'd add Edinburgh & Glasgow, as the Scottish system allows for a broad first & second year, and then a focussed third & fourth year - so there's time for her to stretch out a bit. It's pity she didn't like Lancaster or York - has she actually been to either town? They are delightful places to live, and both have excellent English Departments. Royal Holloway is similarly a smallish place, with a sense of community, as is Exeter - and the countryside there is very beautiful.

Leeds is top notch - a leading School of English. So is Nottingham. Birmingham has had some ups & downs, but has good people there.

But my main point is that if I were teaching her, I can see trouble in that background. I'd be counselling her to take time out, if she came to me in the state she sounds as if she's in at the moment. Weekly panic attacks are not a good sign. She may survive, but I doubt at the moment she is in a position to thrive - through no fault of her own. A year out, to decompress, would pay her huge dividends in the future.

The other thing to say - not to so kindly to you OP is that you seem unhealthily connected.

I know that mothers & first-born children can have a connection unlike that with other subsequent children - I could be projecting here because I have 'suffered' that with my mother, who once told me that mothers 'have no skin between them & their first child' - she actually wasn't talking about her & me, but about another mother-daughter pair we knew. But it is not healthy.

But you're stuck in a bind - she clearly seeks your help. However, your lack of understanding about her individual response to the trauma she experienced - which, I gather, was preceded by an entire chioldhood of abuse or observing abuse, is odd.

You have to remember that siblings all have a different childhood. You should not expect her to react like her siblings - I don't know why anyone would expect this - they are all separate & different people.

You're stuck in a horrible bind, Allie I know. But there's something about the way you write about it that is ... well, odd. I can't quite put my finger on it. You seem almost controlling - I understand it's out of concern, love & care for your troubled DD, but also there's a distance and disinterestedness that feels odd.

But it could be as a result of the terrible times & situation you're in & have been through.

Also hoping today's exam results were what your DD wanted.

DH tried to get support as her panic attacks disturbed his DCs, but they have since adjusted. This jumped out at me. Two things - your DD needs help for her panic attacks because she shouldn't have to suffer them, not because she is disturbing others, and secondly, (and I realise that this sounds contradictory) the other, younger children in the house shouldn't have to suffer them either, and 'adjusting' to them is not a satisfactory solution. As the adults in the house, you and your DH should be focusing on getting help for your DD. You cannot just ignore this and hope it will go away, for the sake of your entire household.

If you don't mind me asking, why is the Maudesley clinic not an option?

I didn't like the guy and have experienced a lot of death (1 of 13 kids - only 8 of us remain. It's like the weakest link!) so was pretty unaffected by the whole thing, and consider myself more than strong enough to put up with the abuse. Now, why would you think this? Why wouldn't you think "I am strong enough NOT to put up with the abuse, so I am leaving this arsehole?" Why were you pregnant when he died, if you didn't like him? There's a whole lot here that worries me about your own coping mechanisms. I'm not trying to be horrible, but these things jump out at me.

I think you are sounding almost detached but I don't think you are. I suspect it's part of your own coping mechanism to deal with the panic attacks and other MH issues almost clinically because the emotion addressing them any other way would be too distressing and reopen your wounds too. You seem to be protecting both of you which is entirely understandable but really you do need to get her mentally healthier before uni , she can't move away whilst panic attacks are so regular even in her safe place. If I'm honest I'm not convinced either of you have had the right counselling yet to move forward freely.

Oh dear, I've skimmed the thread and hope you can resolve whatever is going on emotionally.

From an academic standpoint, she is easily Cambridge material and of course that's no guarantee of an offer, but she has five choices -- and she would DEFINITELY be bored at places like Bath Spa.

I even wonder whether unis with very low typical offers would feel comfortable giving her a place: they must know that 13As at GCSE and a prediction (probably) of AAA or higher at A level puts a student out of their league (and that such a student would not be happy with them).

I also wondered if she'd get an offer from a uni that makes low offers. As an academic, I'd want to know why someone with results like that was aiming so much below her potential, particularly in something quite an unusual, vocational choice like Peace Studies when all the rest of her CV and statement are geared towards highly traditional Eng Lit courses.

What I really wanted to say though OP is that by now this thread contains a lot of identifying info. I'm not sure I'd want that out there if it were my daughter under discussion.

i have read through all 20 pages and I have a few thoughts. Don't want to comment on mental health issues as i think it's unfair when i don't know the full story, but thought my experiences are relevant.

My sister went to Oxford two years before I was due to go to university. My school pushed and pushed me to apply to either Oxford or Cambridge and consistently made references about me being 'as good as my sister'. Needless to say I didn't respond well to that :)

I was clear from the start that I wasn't going to apply even though I easily would have met the academic credentials and to be honest my mum didn't really get involved. She was clear that it was my decision. I even at one point told her I was going to study peace studies at some old poly :) no lie! but that was just me talking and trying to process my thoughts about what I myself really wanted from university. My mum just smiled and nodded and said oh that's interesting dear and i soon realised i was being ridiculous. Honestly, peace studies is one of those courses people who are struggling with what to do think about because it sounds interesting and a bit hippyish even though it actually isn't. she drove me to places that i couldn't afford to get the train to but with no judgment. she asked me what i thought of places or courses once i had been but if i had asked her what she thought she would have said 'doesn't really matter what i think does it, seeing as i'm not going there'. i ended up going to sheffield because i met a boy at reading festival from sheffield who i liked and he made it sound like a cool city. i had a good time there and all was good.

i think you need to use your conversations with her to encourage her to think about what she wants, not provide her with answers. and if you don't think its working, why not find a careers advisor that can have that sort of conversation with her. if you go to a life coach or a career coach, it's interesting because they never try to answer your questions, they help you figure out how you can answer your own questions. they might help her think through what does she want from her time at university, maybe she could make a list - type of town / city she wants to live in (ie big, small, campus, city), type of university she wants (colleges, big, small, party, sporty, musical, etc), what's important in a course (lectures, tutorials, online stuff, quality of staff, opportunity to travel etc) and then this should lead her to her own conclusions. if i were you i wouldn't offer any suggestions of actual places or course, just help her think through her questions. Perhaps one of the questions is, 'if you didn't go to university this year, what else would you like to do?'

Now, why would you think this? Why wouldn't you think "I am strong enough NOT to put up with the abuse, so I am leaving this arsehole?" Why were you pregnant when he died, if you didn't like him? There's a whole lot here that worries me about your own coping mechanisms. I'm not trying to be horrible, but these things jump out at me.
The pregnancy was not my choice. If I'd been in control, I would have only had three children. Staying felt out of my control: my parents and a lot of my family were very opposed to divorce, among other factors.

Maudesley is a long way from our home, and from what I read was mostly for people who lived in that area? I will look at it more, but at first glance it didn't strike me as a feasible idea.

LoucheLady I am also worried about the identifying info - I tried not to release so much but people have been very persistent at bashing the situation, which has made me feel the need to explain every corner, and be explicit about schools/universities etc.

Dancing I think we are very close, in that she tells me everything, but she is also quite independent - she goes to stay with relatives without me, and has met up with her friends on multiple occasions over summer, and on our family summer holiday I somehow ended up seeing very little of her! We can be apart, we just also enjoy being together, perhaps more than other mother/daughter pairs.

I think I have phrased a lot of things badly and have maintained a rather formal style, because that's just how I write. It may have led to a detached image. I also rarely text/email aside from for work, and this is among my first posts even on here, so think I am yet to 'adapt' my style to a 'mumsnet' one.

I also tend to be rather closed in real life, choosing to keep feelings and emotions private and internalised. I acknowledge that this has led to me ignoring DD's mental health issues and minimalising them, and I need to begin to tackle them head on. I have every intention of doing this, I am just still working out exactly HOW.

My DH and his family are old family friends (our relationship is more of a partnership/friendship than anything else - very little romance!), so his concern wasn't just with his own DCs - his youngest son just started crying in response to a particularly bad attack, which triggered the extra therapy. He just didn't feel comfortable forcing the matter prior to this.

In other good news - DD delighted with her results (5As + even an A in general studies!) and is now enjoying her birthday!

If I were to delete the thread, how would i go about it? I intend to leave it open a few more days to get as much advice as possible, but feel ultimately there is too much on here to leave it on the Internet.