To push DD to apply to Cambridge?

[AllieinWonderland]

So I'm relatively new to posting on mumsnet, but have been a long time lurker, so if I mix up the lingo a bit then apologies!
DSS1 got 9As 3As at GCSE, 4 high As at AS level, and is on track to exceed his AAA offer for Oxford.
Oldest DD achieved 13A*s 2As and a B at GCSE (the B in music - she had a panic attack in the exam and it was on a tape so she was unable to get the time back) and is looking on track for 5 high As at AS level in French, English lit, history, physics, and art. She is seemingly good at almost everything (triathlons at county level and has previously played and trained younger children in cricket and basketball, plays the cello, the xylophone, and the clarinet, won a local photography competition, always gets lead roles in an amateur dramatics group and solos in choir) yet has always struggled severely with self esteem, and focuses on the things she is bad at: sees her B in music as the end of her chance of going to good universities, can't bake or cook to save her life despite much encouragement and teaching, is awful at tidying (she is happy to do it but ends up gradually making more of a mess and gets flustered. Again, I've tried forms of 'teaching' and noting has worked). These latter two issues have led her to thinking she needs to stay at home for university and she is driving me mad by saying she'll go to the local university, which is really not a very good one at all, and the only others she'll consider are those with offers of "BBC" or below.
She has finally settled on studying English literature, and I took charge and booked her on open days at Warwick, Edinburgh, Cambridge, and Durham, and her school took the 'Oxbridge' candidates to Oxford for a trip. She hated Durham, didn't like Edinburgh, thought Oxford and Warwick were okay, but loved Cambridge.
In spite of this she is refusing to consider applying, says it's a waste of an application.
I don't want to push her, but I do want her to apply because she clearly loved it and is more than capable. All of her teachers have been saying it since before I can remember, and she reads almost constantly.
Aibu to try and change her mind?
Sorry for the lack of coherence here, my mind a bit of a mess!

Address this now, the longer you leave it the worse it can become.

Not going to University now is not the end of the world as she can go later.

Not sorting out her mental health now can (and most likely will) lead to bigger problems in the future. You should be doing all you can to avoid a major breakdown or worse.

She is obviously academically able but does not sound emotionally robust. Her reasons for rejecting the unis already visited are valid- she sounds very sensible.
Waiting for results before applying would (hopefully) boost her confidence and self belief and give her extra time to explore more potential courses.

BertrandRussell you seem highly critical of everything? It's somehow wrong of me to have mentally ill relatives? I shouldn't be playing ultimate frisbee with my children but rather regular frisbee because ultimate is too pushy?

Thank you Jaboo65, and I'm sorry to hear about your experience (I would have replied earlier but too many posts had gone so k forgot, but just scrolled back to see you were the same person!)

Maudesley isn't really an option, but I am going to see what I can find in terms of PTSD specialists when I get the chance. I just know she wants a bright future, but I don't mind if she ends up a lollipop lady. I just want her to be happy, and I see that tackling mental illness is the best place to start for the long term, despite the intense short term pain and difficulty it's going to cause.
She's not going to like me for all this (I can't say I blame her) so I may as well get on with it...

What an interesting - but sad - thread.

I studied English at Cambridge. My daughter studies there now.

I'd agree with all the other people who have said this is not a good place to go when you have had major unresolved bad things going on in your life and haven't got anywhere near coming to terms with them.

Probably no university is a good place to go.

From my own experience I'd say that the bad things, which one is trying to contain, just have to come out sooner or later. It will not be possible to keep them in the box while dealing with all the challenges of independent student life.

Yet at the same time there's a young woman who needs to find her way forward and become more independent.

call the maudesley they will tell you who to go to locally or advise who to approach .

I'm sure she loves you. It's hard to face things we think of as being weak.

She might blame you in the short term, but it's like dragging a tantrumming toddler out of a shop in the sense that you're acting in her long-term interests for the sake of upsetting her in the moment. It's just far more complicated now she's so much older.

FWIW, you've taken on board the things people have said a lot more than I've seen from other OPs, and you've had some very aggressive attacks on your parenting but have kept coming back. That speaks volumes.

Unfortunately as a parent/spouse/good friend sometimes the essence of the job isn't to be liked...but to truly help. Looks like you have made up your mind to do that, which is good.

You said something earlier about "strange as it might seem, my daughter uses x to calm herself after a panic attack". My immediate thought was how would you feel about the prospect of "x" being not work but...alcohol, drugs, sex, food, exercise, cleaning, cigarettes? Because one ism can easily turn into another.

Part of this may be about therapy, it may also be about her learning to relax.

Your daughter sounds like she has experienced retraumatisation with some forms of therapy (to the extent she screamed and threatened to jump out of the car, which is a sure sign something isn't right tbh). I'm not surprised- CBT is not for everyone.

So you will have to be skillful with this. If a specialist child trauma unit as suggested by others isn't an option, then maybe these things can help:

1. "Coping with Trauma Related Dissociation" by Suzette Boon et al. It's about putting in place some strategies that enable a person to stabilize enough that they can face therapy, and have reassuring habits in place whilst they have the therapy. Sounds like art Therapy is functioning a bit like this- not therapy in itself but something that will support/enable other therapeutic processes.
2. Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving. A guide and map to recovering from childhood Trauma by Pete Walker. (His website is also very good, especially on what steps to take whilst some is having/recovering from a flashback).

Maybe also think about finding a therapist who has helped either survivors of sexual assault/abuse or returning war veterans- PTSD is very common in those cohorts, so some of the skills/knowledge base will be similar.

There have been huge strides not only in PTSD therapy recently but also in neurobiology (so the understanding of the physical mechanisms which underpin trauma has increased hugely). This means that there is a huge difference in someone who specializes in trauma with recent training/CPD who is up-to-date in the field, and someone who doesn't.

So maybe do some research on what to ask any potential therapist- what do they think of EMDTR, what do they think of exposure therapy. Do they think polyvagal theory has any application in trauma treatment? Have they heard of the 2012 US Army programme that rolled out new trauma treatment protocols? It's just to work out whether they are up to date.So do some reading yourself in the area so you can find a good therapist, one who is suited to your daughter.

Good luck

"BertrandRussell you seem highly critical of everything? It's somehow wrong of me to have mentally ill relatives? I shouldn't be playing ultimate frisbee with my children but rather regular frisbee because ultimate is too pushy?"

I have a child with mental health issues. I spend a lot of time wondering what, if anything, in her past contributed to her problems. You seem completely unwilling to consider why your dd might be feeling the way she does. Knowing that there is mental illness on both sides of her family must be fucking scary for her- of course she tries to pretend it isn't happening! And the "ultimate frisbee" thing was the last straw. Not "Let's go out and throw a frisbee about together" but "Let's go and relax by playing a highly competitive game"

*EMDR, sorry for typo.

Something you mention before as well is how you don't understand why she suffers more than the other children who were in the house when your DH was discovered.

Well, the visual impact of that is one factor. And she was on her own when she saw him, even though other people were in the house, if she was the first person to see him, no-one else did simultaneously- she was alone in that shocking experience. Also, current research is pointing out that different people react differently to the same trauma, so even if she hadn't been the first to see him, she might have reacted differently.

I would like to ask you whether you think that your inability to see why it should affect her more than the others, might play a part in her inability to see/accept her own difficulties? It sounds like you are very close, she values your opinion, you are deeply connected. Your attitude will affect her, whether it is intended to do that or not.

Here is a link to a Forces TV documentary on PTSD called PTSD: A Bright Future. It has some introductory information on how people react differently to trauma, and different therapies (e.g. Exposure therapy and extinction learning). It also explains a bit why some people respond to some therapies and not others.
videos.forces.tv/detail/videos/latest/video/4257529054001/ptsd-doco?autoStart=true

Very much an introduction but a good round-up.

MiaowJario I think alcohol, drugs, food, cigarettes (maybe sex? Yet to cross this one yet so can't say how I'd feel!) would worry simply because they're not the 'safest' coping mechanisms (an eating disorder seems like the worst nightmare to me, having seen my god daughter spend the last three years in and out of units and hospital) But if, like her sister, she found scrolling through social media and YouTube a coping mechanism, or cleaning/sports/watching tv, then I would be totally supportive.

BertrandRussell I am sorry to hear of your situation, but I don't feel your response is justified. Of course I don't understand why she has severe flashbacks - I don't suffer from anything of the sort. I understand that she had a traumatic childhood, it just throws me off that she's the only one badly damaged by the experience. I do understand that it was hard for her, but I can't help questioning why SHE is the one who's been impacted in such a way.
And ultimate frisbee is not highly competitive? It's just a game we all enjoy because it has slightly more to it than just flinging the frisbee aimlessly, so captivates more children for longer... It is a game that everyone except DSS1 (who to be fair is 18) is willing to engage in. We all find running around and getting whacked in the face by a disc fun.

Just saw your most recent post MiaowJario - you're right again. I do need to work on understanding and accepting that, but I don't think it's something that'll come in a day. We probably need to discuss it, because the more i think about it the more I realise we never did.

I didn't like the guy and have experienced a lot of death (1 of 13 kids - only 8 of us remain. It's like the weakest link!) so was pretty unaffected by the whole thing, and consider myself more than strong enough to put up with the abuse. She was a young girl and he was her dad, a far more important figure than he ever was to me. I think I forgot that and expected her to move on with me.

Allie my point was that what can look like a coping mechanism can really become an addiction, and one addiction can easily become another unless you treat the underlying cause.

For example, would you find cleaning an ok coping mechanism if it became compulsive and she insisted on scrubbing her hands afterwards till they bled?

Basically, if something only works as a coping mechanism if she pushes herself to the point of exhaustion or hits real physical limits on her capacity (e.g. Having a panic attack in an exam) it's probably gotten beyond the point of coping mechanism and into addiction. A coping mechanism brings some kind of satisfaction/peace, because it brings calm rather than a manic compulsion to repeat the action.

Am I right in thinking DD is the eldest of your children? (Not including your step family). If so that would explain why she was more affected by the trauma.

Quite apart from being the one to find him, which clearly is a trauma
in itself.

Sorry, cross post.

Her dad is a vastly difference person to her than to you, that's really true. It sounds like you haven't had an easy time of it yourself. sometimes the things that work for one person don't work for another. Coping mechanism that are great for one aren't always great for another.

We all find.... getting whacked in the face by a disc fun.

This is a bit ironic when we're talking about survivors of abuse.

All I can say - from my own experience of trying to deal with past abuse in the family I grew up in - is that one of the problems is that adult family members who were not perpetrators are nonetheless people who will, to an extent, have enabled the abuse to happen.

This limits their ability to help the young person who is struggling to deal with the effects of the abuse.

As someone who was abused as a child one of my strongest feeling is that I am really, really alone. However, I think it was making relationships with other adults (outside the family) that helped me the most as a young adult.

Don't worry about it MiaowJario - I do believe her when she describes it as a coping mechanism though, because just watching her you can see all the tension bleed out and the look of delight when she gets a question right/ realises why she got it wrong/ finishes an essay/ just reads something interesting, to me, looks like one of peaceful happiness.

She is the oldest Gloria

she was never close to him - he only got on with DS (who's now 15, almost 16) as he would lose patience with the DDs and shout at them a lot, so I suppose I expected DS to be affected most . He certainly became quieter and more withdrawn and lost interest in football and trains (their bonding points) for the few years after, but hasn't had any notable difficulties.

I think it will help me to remember that a father is a far bigger feature in someone's life than a husband, and shapes a person so much more. + remember how much I hated the guy and that she was probably more conflicted, which will again have made it all more difficult.

Not the t word, not super high achievers all round, just a very large family - when there are over 60 cousins and countless more second cousins and 12 siblings, the chances of knowing someone with something increases massively.

As I've said - DD2 gets mostly Bs in lessons, and DS Fs and Es in English, Bs and Cs in sciences, and A*s in history and maths.
Just one high achieving daughter (though DD3 looks like she may be heading down that road - help!) .

I would be cautiously about discussing it with her directly out of nowhere though- that could be really traumatic. I do think it will be something you need to one day, but with appropriate support for both of you, and having worked out the best way to approach it. Some people deal with things best head on, others needs to sidle up to things.

One simple thing is that some people find it a lot easier to write about their experiences than talk about them.

Well, then it could be that work is a coping mechanism. But that because the underlying trauma is not being addressed/healed, no coping mechanism will be enough to relieve the pressure now. The stress is just too much to be "coped" with? The trauma needs treatment, not work arounds.

As she loves Eng Lit so much, what about a creative writing course for fun. Not as a therapy, but to build her ability to express herself. That skill could then be helpful one day in a therapeutic context.

MiaowJario yes, I'm not sure I'm the best person to broach the whole topic with her so am considering mentioning it to her form tutor (who is lovely and we've spoken to before), and asking her to talk to DD next time a school panic happens.

i may then be safer to mention other forms of treatment/therapy. I think I shall, for the next few weeks, just focus on making the holiday chilled and trying to evade university discussion where possible because it probably isn't helping. Then start looking at more options in September, after I've had time to research and talk to GP etc.