To push DD to apply to Cambridge?

[AllieinWonderland]

So I'm relatively new to posting on mumsnet, but have been a long time lurker, so if I mix up the lingo a bit then apologies!
DSS1 got 9As 3As at GCSE, 4 high As at AS level, and is on track to exceed his AAA offer for Oxford.
Oldest DD achieved 13A*s 2As and a B at GCSE (the B in music - she had a panic attack in the exam and it was on a tape so she was unable to get the time back) and is looking on track for 5 high As at AS level in French, English lit, history, physics, and art. She is seemingly good at almost everything (triathlons at county level and has previously played and trained younger children in cricket and basketball, plays the cello, the xylophone, and the clarinet, won a local photography competition, always gets lead roles in an amateur dramatics group and solos in choir) yet has always struggled severely with self esteem, and focuses on the things she is bad at: sees her B in music as the end of her chance of going to good universities, can't bake or cook to save her life despite much encouragement and teaching, is awful at tidying (she is happy to do it but ends up gradually making more of a mess and gets flustered. Again, I've tried forms of 'teaching' and noting has worked). These latter two issues have led her to thinking she needs to stay at home for university and she is driving me mad by saying she'll go to the local university, which is really not a very good one at all, and the only others she'll consider are those with offers of "BBC" or below.
She has finally settled on studying English literature, and I took charge and booked her on open days at Warwick, Edinburgh, Cambridge, and Durham, and her school took the 'Oxbridge' candidates to Oxford for a trip. She hated Durham, didn't like Edinburgh, thought Oxford and Warwick were okay, but loved Cambridge.
In spite of this she is refusing to consider applying, says it's a waste of an application.
I don't want to push her, but I do want her to apply because she clearly loved it and is more than capable. All of her teachers have been saying it since before I can remember, and she reads almost constantly.
Aibu to try and change her mind?
Sorry for the lack of coherence here, my mind a bit of a mess!

Also you say your DD asks for your advice, so give it.

Tell her in no uncertain terms that you think her MH issues need proper time and space and that you think a gap year would be preferable. It's the most responsible thing, surely?

Refuse to engage with deflection and minimising. Refuse to discuss Peace Studies (which she clearly has no intention of doing if her personal statement is geared to Eng Lit).

it is quite possible she focuses on academics to keep her mid off traumatic event. my brother was killed in an accident the august before i started uni and the first year i threw myself into studying studying... second year i "woke up" and had more fun!

also she may need to revisit her trauma and experience of finding her father with a professional to really move on. so seconding the specialist PTSD therapy suggested above. the fact she continues to have panic attacks suggests she hasn't yet had the right treatment ?

let her apply for whatever/wherever she wants, no pressure...
when she get results if they are AAAAAA she can go into adjustment as was said. she can also decline place then and take a gap year and re apply.

dont fret over whether uni x only requires BBB!
i went to a then poly which asked for bbc if i recall - i was not the only person who had AAB or higher and choose to go there for the course...there were certainly enough people for "intellectual conversation" ! later i got a highly sought after media grad trainee place alongside oxbridge grads; and now work for the UN. comprehensive state school, "poly" Ba 2:1, etc - it all worked out career wise...not going to oxbridge does not mean waving goodbye to a good career and prospects.

It was a reason for moving the relationship quicker than we perhaps otherwise would have - we moved in after a year and a half, and I am usually a cautious person so this seemed hasty to me (but necessary for his job).

I don't think she's worried about me - I'm not sure I'm the kind of person one would worry about!

every time universities come up I will change the topic...

now that would be really silly, wouldnt it?

listen and engage with her if she brings it up.
read "how to talk so teens will listen"

reflect back, listen.

You're the parent OP. She's 16 years old, if you say she needs a gap year for x reasons, then she will listen. (Prayer has nothing to do with it).

It's a very different message from the one you've given out thus far.

Don't back off. Just stop focussing on this push for even more achievement. Get advice for yourself on how to deal with her mental health. And stop....please, please... stop minimizing her experience. The issues she is dealing with are huge. Weekly extreme panic attacks are not something you can just ignore.

Yet they come up every morning, with the same content:
"What do you think I should do? Where else should I look?"
And me always starting with "it's up to what you want" and "just look at as many as you can" but always her pushing for a more direct opinion - which is when I mention specific universities and tell her she's capable of more than she thinks she is.

You moved in with a Dad of four when you had five kids after a year and a half.

Blimey....

Diglet under different circumstances I wouldn't, I can assure you!

In your shoes OP I would be pushing DD - but towards a gap year and applying after A level results, not towards any particular university or course.

She is young for her year anyway, is emotionally very fragile, she needs more time. I suspect her choice of Bradford is her subconscious saying "stop the world I want to get off" but in a way that fits with her conscious need to achieve and progress at all times (which in her head, a gap year doesn't fit with).

What would be the best way to persuade her to do a gap year? Can you persuade her that learning some "life skills" would be useful, more useful than going straight to university? She sounds like she will not buy into a year of just relaxing (but is not in a good state for Nepal trekking etc) so can you make some suggestions which sound sufficiently constructive but also give her some time and space with your support. How about some work experience (close to home)? How about a cooking course? If she loves art, and finds it therapeutic, might she consider a one year Foundation Course (again, living at home)?

Yet they come up every morning, with the same content:
"What do you think I should do?

So you tell you think she needs to take a step right back and take a gap year to deal with her mental health issues.

So that she gets to a place emotionally and mentally when she is not waking up with repetitive, anxious questions.

Gloria she would almost certainly interpret that as me saying she's not capable. I tread on eggshells to avoid worsening the situation!

minipie the foundation art course is something we hadn't considered before but sounds like a great idea. Alternately our local college does lots of languages - she's always wanted to learn Italian, do some more Japanese or Russian (I speak both Italian and Russian and she often asks me to teach her phrases!)

I mainly lurk but I just couldn't close this post without posting. I suffer(ed) from PTSD and have been through hell and back trying to come out the other side.

My trauma was different to your daughter but for years after we all just pushed it to the back of our minds. I seemed fine, I wanted to move on and not let it control my life (HA!). My parents never mentioned it and we all acted like everything was peachy.

Thing is I wasn't fine, I pretended to be fine. I even managed to convince myself I was fine but I can see now I wasn't. I was plagued by panic attacks and nightmares. I couldn't make simple decisions and avoided certain places. I was functioning sure, I went to college, I went to work, I had a boyfriend (now husband), I went out with friends.

I was normal on the surface but look deeper and I was a complete and utter mess. Deep down I was terrified, angry, worthless, failure. I pushed all my negative feelings to the back of my mind because I was determined not to let them win. I am not weak, I am a survivor, I can do anything.

This all came to a huge climax when one day at work I just couldn't do it anymore and the start of a massive breakdown happened. I lost almost a year of my life where I just completely withdrew from life. I was self harming and suicidal.

I got help eventually, it was one of my therapist that told me the root of my problems was the trauma and she diagnosed me with PTSD.

I have had years of therapy and I have had to face my past. I no longer have panic attacks (seriously once a week is still a hell of a lot). I no longer have bad dreams. I no longer feel consumed by negative thoughts, I can make simple and complex decisions, and I no longer avoid places.

I look at my trauma and I feel angry and sad that a huge chunk of my life was wasted because everyone (including myself) though I was fine and coping.

I fear for your daughter because right now I can see where she is heading and it's not a nice place to be.

"Gloria she would almost certainly interpret that as me saying she's not capable. I tread on eggshells to avoid worsening the situation!"

I thought you said her mental heal wasn't an issue..........

Gloria she would almost certainly interpret that as me saying she's not capable

Which is a good example of why she is not ready.

You explain, repeatedly, that accepting that she has some problems doesn't mean she is weak or incapable. But they do need consideration and they need time to heal. That it's optimum for her to deal with that first.

15 years ago now but....I got amazing GCSEs and then completely flunked my A levels as the pressure was insane. Just hated it. I got a job I enjoyed and worked my way up until I realised i needed a degree to progress further. I applied to uni 3 years after I got my A level results, got in where i wanted on life experience as well as exam results and then had 3 amazing years at Uni. Back off and let her decide....uni isn't the be all and end all and taking some time out to develop confidence and gain life experience is no bad thing.

Really good post from Jaboo. I have to agree that DD is potentially on course for a breakdown. That is precisely my concern.

A couple of things that strike me OP:

I don't think I've ever heard of a child who needs a gap year more. Some real life experience and time to breathe. I'd be doing everything in my power to persuade her of that fact.

Now this is heavily shaped by my own personal/anecdotal experience, but I would never in a million years send a child of mine with fragile mental health to Oxbridge. I've seen too many sad stories. From what I can see the atmosphere is toxic and the support shockingly remiss. Obviously this is only my opinion, shaped by stories from friends/acquaintances. I'd be glad to find out that others have had better experiences.

There is much, much more to life than academic results. Your daughter will find that out in time and really, once there's a II.I to wave in front of employers, no one gives the slightest shit about it. I suspect this will come as a shock to your daughter, but you should both be thinking further into the future and making sure she's building the skills that will make her employable. Dealing with her anxiety issues, basic life skills, organisation, being happy in her own skin, empathy to others - all a part of that. A gap year will be very valuable for all that.

You strike me as focused on entirely the wrong things. And no one on this thread seems to be getting through to you.

I wonder if she sees you being valued for your childcare, cooking and cleaning skills whilst being highly educated and is worried that if she cannot do those things she might end up in an abusive relationship.

Gaining 4/5 siblings, a new Dad, being a teenager and experiencing traumatic abuse and the discovery of a parent's suicide in the space of 4/5 years is an awful lot of life experiences that are all potentially traumatic.

I'm getting a sense of which university to go to and which course to do is something external that can be focussed on and to an extent controlled when so much in life cannot. I guess there's a lot not being talked about when this can be the focus.

I think many posters on here are concerned about you op and we don't live with you! You have been through such a lot too, maybe you both need to come up for some air instead of busying through every minute of life.

OP you really cannot avoid discussing your DD's MH issues for fear of upsetting her.

Lots of PP's have suggested a gap year. That is totally what she needs, she shouldn't be applying for university yet.

From your description I would wonder whether she's even got enough self-knowledge (which is very different from cleverness) to be certain that the subject she's chosen is the right one for her, at this stage.

And frankly, she is in the group that is most likely to fall apart once they get to university - academically able but with no strong foundation of self awareness and confidence underpinning her ability. She needs a chance to do something that strengthens her character. Volunteering somewhere, probably.

I did a gap year myself - 20 years ago now - due to uncertainty. I was an army brat so had never had any chance to maintain strong, long lasting friendships, and was terrified by the social side of university.

I volunteered on an archaeological dig for the summer after A'levels, then applied for Classics at four top universities and then worked the rest of the year to earn money to set myself up well for my studies.

By the time I started (as Oxford as it happens) I was much less shy, and loved my course and perhaps even more importantly for my life - made some forever-friends and got together with the man I went on to marry and have children with.

Honestly, put your efforts into getting her to play for time, not talking her into applying somewhere she isn't ready for.

op have you had family or joint therapy alongside and with your DD? working with a trained PTSD therapist to hear from both of you to each other ?

i think a few joint sessions might be really helpful for both of you?

that could be a plan for a GAP year to really work on this - you said up thread that on therapy days she is stressed - this really shows how much it is needed. yes it will be hard work for both of you to address relive and process what happened... allow time for that without uni pressure

i dont know how far it is for you but maudesley has specialist unit

Child Traumatic Stress Service | SLaM National Services

www.national.slam.nhs.uk/services/camhs/camhs-traumaticstress/

Location: Maudsley Hospital Mode: Outpatient Referrals are accepted from: Consultant psychiatrists, mental health professionals, GPs, schools and school
Trauma and Dissociation Service | SLaM National Services

they also do adult www.national.slam.nhs.uk/services/adult-services/traumaticstress/

Location: Maudsley Hospital, Outpatient Department ... assessment and treatment of complex post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and dissociative disorders.

Centre for Anxiety Disorders and Trauma | SLaM National Services