To push DD to apply to Cambridge?

[AllieinWonderland]

So I'm relatively new to posting on mumsnet, but have been a long time lurker, so if I mix up the lingo a bit then apologies!
DSS1 got 9As 3As at GCSE, 4 high As at AS level, and is on track to exceed his AAA offer for Oxford.
Oldest DD achieved 13A*s 2As and a B at GCSE (the B in music - she had a panic attack in the exam and it was on a tape so she was unable to get the time back) and is looking on track for 5 high As at AS level in French, English lit, history, physics, and art. She is seemingly good at almost everything (triathlons at county level and has previously played and trained younger children in cricket and basketball, plays the cello, the xylophone, and the clarinet, won a local photography competition, always gets lead roles in an amateur dramatics group and solos in choir) yet has always struggled severely with self esteem, and focuses on the things she is bad at: sees her B in music as the end of her chance of going to good universities, can't bake or cook to save her life despite much encouragement and teaching, is awful at tidying (she is happy to do it but ends up gradually making more of a mess and gets flustered. Again, I've tried forms of 'teaching' and noting has worked). These latter two issues have led her to thinking she needs to stay at home for university and she is driving me mad by saying she'll go to the local university, which is really not a very good one at all, and the only others she'll consider are those with offers of "BBC" or below.
She has finally settled on studying English literature, and I took charge and booked her on open days at Warwick, Edinburgh, Cambridge, and Durham, and her school took the 'Oxbridge' candidates to Oxford for a trip. She hated Durham, didn't like Edinburgh, thought Oxford and Warwick were okay, but loved Cambridge.
In spite of this she is refusing to consider applying, says it's a waste of an application.
I don't want to push her, but I do want her to apply because she clearly loved it and is more than capable. All of her teachers have been saying it since before I can remember, and she reads almost constantly.
Aibu to try and change her mind?
Sorry for the lack of coherence here, my mind a bit of a mess!

has school done something like the www.morrisby.com/schools/morrisby-profile/

my daughter (state comprehensive) did this via school and it was helpful in defining options and included a one to one session which gave pointers to applying to unis and what to aim for.. eg made it clear if she wants to do biology at uni she needs to do chemistry a level - something she had thought of dropping.

if school hasnt provided for then get this done privately?

having someone independent of you assessing and going thru options with her may be very helpful.

get her onto morrisby or similar full profiling and one to one career/coaching sessions

I haven't rtft so apologies if this has already been covered. Could she wait until she has her results? Then she will know exactly how good she is. And also it sounds as if she would benefit from a gap year.

Bobochic I am not sure she is in as bad a place emotionally as everyone assumes. Yes, she has panic attacks, but I don't think she finds herself suffering from them. I think she wants them to stop, but if they don't she has, over the last four years, learnt to cope with them.

Her traumatic childhood has impacted her, which perhaps I am partly to blame for, and I believe it is part of the origin of her low self esteem. (Her father rarely physically targeted her but would often be rather emotionally abusive towards her when drunk)

When she found him she was not alone - we simply got home from school/work, DCs just scattered and she happened to be the first to go to our bedroom, where he was. The other children seem far less affected, but probably because they were younger - she was 12, younger children were 10, 8, and 4 (and unborn). Maybe I have always struggled to see why she has been affected by it more than the other three, so don't take her panics seriously enough. She just doesn't seem to want them to be taken seriously.

also go back to her therapists and see what work they can do on resilience - again some schools run programmes on this .
it sounds like she does need some support to build her life skills - academics alone wont get her thru life...

if she simply wants to be a primary school teacher - she does not need to got o Cambridge for that! if that really is her ambition let her pursue that - does she get on with young kids have a passion for teaching them do babysitting etc?

and member people can change careers and studies later in life - what she does now in her twenties is not the end of the story...

Hmm so she accidentally 'missed' applying for open days.

The messages she's sending you, you're not hearing. The advice you've been given on this thread, you're not listening.

I have utmost respect for the trauma of DD's life experiences, and believe that her anxiety, panic attacks and vulnerability are the result of that.

But I went to bed last night with posters flagging the importance of her mental health, questioning the displacement of your focus onto unis and grades and I come back today and you're still obsessing over them.

You say:

I am going to remain heavily involved, because I know without my involvement she panics, and I know she has to get used to it one day but I don't think this is the day

So how's she going to cope in a city away from you? And if it's Cambridge, she will be with a lot of other students with equally good if not better grades, a great deal more confidence and no panic issues. An uncle or an aunt is all very well but they can't cure her. One panic attack a week is a lot - she basically has a panic disorder. Saying she doesn't want 'give in' to them is missing the point. She still has them regularly, she hasn't got on top of them enough to stop them from happening (not criticising simply pointing it out). Panic management takes a lot of time and energy.

You cannot rely on good pastoral care just because a friend had good care. Pastoral care at Oxbridge is patchy. What they really want is well-adjusted copers who bang out decent essays and get a first for the college.

I've told you I think she needs a year out, as have so many people in this thread. In the circumstances I think it would be wise for her to get some practice living away from you, potentially getting over her panic attacks, and developing life skills. You are the parent, if you decide that's in her best interest you explain it clearly. She doesn't have the life experience yet to know what the consequences of her decisions could be.

She did four weeks of work experience in a school at the end of year 11 in a school which is when she decided.

She is sympathetic towards those with disabilities, but not towards mental illness.

Allie - I think you cannot see the wood for the trees. Someone else than you needs to guide your DD.

Yes, she has panic attacks, but I don't think she finds herself suffering from them.

I'm sorry but I think you're deluding yourself here. Panic attacks are physical and mentally exhausting. Being on high alert for the next one is absolutely draining. You've described her panic attacks as throwing things, screaming and crying. How can she not be suffering?

She asked me to help to book open days for her, so I did.

I totally agree a year out is what she need, but making her see this is always going to be the tricky thing.

"Maybe I have always struggled to see why she has been affected by it more than the other three, so don't take her panics seriously enough. She just doesn't seem to want them to be taken seriously."

Blimey............

I totally agree a year out is what she need, but making her see this is always going to be the tricky thing.

I don't understand if when you think a gap year is best you're talking about pushing her to apply to uni and booking her on open days. Surely anyone would say "if you want to go and look around unis that's great, but you need to sort it yourself and I'll come with you if you want". I just don't get it.

Panic attacks are physical and mentally exhausting. Being on high alert for the next one is absolutely draining. You've described her panic attacks as throwing things, screaming and crying. How can she not be suffering?

Exactly. Every attack is draining in itself. And a lot of time and energy is spent managing panic so that it doesn't turn into an attack.

The dearth of empathy towards mental illness, I think is a way of telling herself she's not mentally ill, and trying to control it.

She does not consider herself as suffering - her (sort of) friend started having panic attacks and DD has criticised her to me, saying she lets them affect her life, and laughs at them (not to her face, she feigns sympathy apparently).

I just don't like to see her upset and stressed, and she was upset and stressed about failing to book open days.

Blimey again..........

IME, very few students with mental illnesses claim to want them taken seriously. They apologise them away and say they can cope. It's rotten, but actually, a sign of maturity is realising you cannot simply wish everything away by pretending it's all ok.

What's that saying "there are none so blind as those who do not want to see?"
allie I criticised people who got stressed and couldn't cope with exams to deflect attention from the fact I was making myself sick to get through the day. Your daughter criticising her friend with panic disorder means nothing at all.

I really feel sorry for your daughter. She's in a world of despair and you're just not seeing it.

I think pushing her to do anything would be a terrible idea, I believe this is generally a bad parenting idea but reading your thread I think your Dd would totally resent you for it.

She has had a tough time growing up and has panic attacks. I've inly ever had one but it was the worst experience of my life. I literally had no idea who I was or what I was doing, I had chest pains and pounding headaches. It's debilitating.

Could she manage a small part time job to build up skills and confidence? A coffee shop/dog walking/babysitting...?

Please don't push her to go to uni

Getting that worked up about failing to book open days, which I'm sure was an unconcious choice, is disproportionate. That in itself tells you she's not really ok.

LRD I do see what you mean. I guess it's hard to see the end of them when it's been four (nearly five) years, so we've all sort of resigned to coping with them.

I wouldn't recommend school teaching to anyone with perfectionist tendencies and a fear of failure and rejection. It's a harsh profession at the moment and very stressful.

Your daughter is already incredibly successful and talented. She could do anything in the world. Angsting about universities is such a waste of yours and hers time. She'll get into one wherever and whatever she wants to do, whether she applies early or decides to go through clearing. I don't think I know any adults with GCSEs as good as your DDs and I know lots of academically successful adults with interesting careers. I suppose if your circle is supreme academic success or nothing your views might be skewed but mine is of lots of people from lots of different backgrounds becoming academically successful at their own pace.

There are specific therapies for trauma and PTSD which are really helpful. Something like EMDR might only take a couple of sessions and make the world of difference. It's worth a try, especially as your dd seems very solution focussed and very busy.

Did you really marry your dh so he could work abroad one week a month and have someone to look after his dc? What do you do to have fulfilling life of your own outside looking after 8 children? Is your dd worried about leaving you on your own without having her support too?

allie sorry but I think you are hugely minimising your DD's issues. I understand why; it is horrible to accept our children are in a bad place.

But weekly panic attacks with fainting and screaming, insomnia, daily 5am talks about concerns, taking too many exams contrary to advice, organising endless activities and social engagements paints a picture of someone with extremely fragile mental health.

How this profile fits alongside decisions regarding university is problematic. I'm usually the first to enthusiastically advise young people to give Oxbridge a go. And whilst I wouldn't dismiss Oxbridge for someone with MH issues (I don't see it as a worse environment than say, York), I do wonder if a gap year would be preferable here.

She babysits for a few families and really enjoys it, and was thinking about applying for a job at a bakery after her friend got one.

From what I can gather, I should back off. So I will do just that - every time universities come up I will change the topic, and when asked for help and advice I think I will try and pass her onto her step brother, who probably knows more about it all than I ever will!

I'll just keep praying for a gap year followed by somewhere she enjoys studying something she loves! (Either languages or English lit, though probably the latter.)

*BeryandRussel^

Blimey again.....

My thoughts exactly.

Just a quick point and probably been made but it's very important.

If a student is applying somewhere because they liked the personality/style/subject matter of the lecturers they met on open day they need to be aware:

1. Those lecturers are a very small subset of the ones the student will see day to day.
2. There is no guarantee those particular lecturers will actually be teaching her at all and there is likewise no guarantee that any particular specialism will be taught while they are at the university.

Those lecturers may be on sabbatical, maternity or sick leave, they may have moved elsewhere.

It is rare that someone else teaches a specialism while a lecturer is off (though some subjects have accreditation that asks for minimum coverage it is true).

In some subjects general areas will (or must) be covered but in other subjects a whole area that a student is interested in could not be covered.

This is only unlikely to be true if it is already a major specialism of a department (e.g. if half the department works on Victorian literature - sorry not my specialism so apologies if unlikely - somebody will be available to teach it), one or two or three lovely lecturers who work on medieval poetry could all move elsewhere, potentially together.