To think that having a child doesn't absolve you from making an effort with friends?

[Overthinker2016]

Many of my friends are married with children.

I get that their priorities are different from mine now. I get that they are "busier" than childless me (although busy is a bit subjective I think). I am happy to spend time with their children and/or OH for what it's worth (if I was invited to!)

However AIBU to think they should still make a bit of an effort to keep in touch? One friend in particular has been coming back to me with dates since about February .

Do I cut them some slack and just keep on being the one making the effort or just stop and lose some otherwise very nice friends.

And I don't view my time as "more important". I just have less of it with dependents and full time work and caring responsibilities for elderly parents. It is hardly a value statement. I would love time away with good friends. I DON'T have time to get away from the kids (although it is coming right finally now youngest has stopped nightwaking). It's not being arsey or mean. It just is. And people can choose to hang in there or not but I can't magic up time that doesn't exist.

Tbh overthinker you are showing a lack of empathy when you say things like but I have to contend with these things too. Yes we all have to deal with illness, bereavement, money worries, relationship troubles but when you've got kids you have to juggle loads of other shit as well. Before I had kids I was well aware that I wasn't as busy or frazzled because I wasn't on call 144 hours a week and actually working most of them. When you start on that you're also busy because you work, 9-5, 5 days a week and do a few voluntarily shifts you obviously don't get it. Are you one of those people who go and visit a friend with a newborn and start complaining about how tired you are?

But it's not about getting away. It's about doing something - something small - to assure people that you're still there, just swamped by parenthood. The 'friendly messages' can't just be one way.

Or they can, of course. But then don't be surprised if you end up losing those friendships. Good friends cut one slack, hang on in there, understand about cancellations... but if you spend five or so years totally incommunicado, you cannot expect them to stand still either.

Incidentally I completely agree about the loneliness. In my early 30s, watching so many people disappear into parenthood and assuring me I "couldn't know what it was like"...well, actually I did bloody want to know what it was like. Very much. The whole "our friends don't see us since we had little Charlemagne" line was trotted out a lot.

I repeat: if you have time to invest in your partner relationship, you have time to invest in your other relationships. You're making a choice.

I do send texts, FB messages, emails and whatnot. Because I'm just too busy to do anything (non sleeping baby that wakes every half hour...)
I've not ditched anyone, but found that no one wants to keep in touch. I moved abroad a few years ago and no one I thought was a friend bothered to stay in regular contact.

I feel a little pang of loss every time a friend tells me they are going to have a baby. In all my experiences, it does have an impact on the nature of the friendship between us. And so as someone who doesn't want children but massively values my friendships and my time spent with friends, it is a bit sad for me. Even though of course I am happy for my friends on the most fundamental level.

In my experience I haven't had issues with lack of effort or whatever, just the inevitability of less time spent together, more restrictions on what you can do and when together, conversation v different as they are knackered / distracted every 30s by baby or toddler.

Plus their perspective on life has shifted. They are experiencing something massive and all-consuming that I am not, and that I don't really understand. It does put some sort of barrier between you.

No blame, just observations.

If you have time to read long threads and post on MN, you have time to drop a quick email or text to a good friend. If you can attend a boring meeting about learning maths aged 4 (those meetings are pointless) you can probably nip out for a coffee with a friend/have them over one Sunday afternoon.

If your friend has distressing events in their lives, illness, trauma, caring for elderly parents, they are distressing full stop, you don't need to competitively brush them off about it. I have a lot of problems, and kids, and work full-time, but when I hear a friend who is upset/worried, then the fact they are child-free is meaningless to me. Once you start becoming unempathic to others problems, and competitive about stress, it's a downhill slope for any type of friendship.

I'm sure most of these attitudes come from people when they are in the throes of baby/toddler wrangling when sleep deprivation is at its worst, and with unsupportive or absent husbands/partners who don't allow everyone in the house to have time off/a few hours off/a holiday away/go away with old friends. Heaps of men do go on stag dos, weekends away, cycle every weekend, do hobbies though- which indicates losing your friends, sanity and social life is something that disproportionately affects women who have children and not men, which suggests it isn't intrinsic to becoming a parent.

It sort of depends just how swamped you are, surely, and things like social support and financial and physical constraints. I spent three years just trying to stay alive while engaged in very intensive treatment and trying to manage to be caring and nurturing to these tiny people in my life that I was just getting to know and learn to care for and I shared the details of that with very few people in my life, not even my mum. And even without laying it on the table it very much taught me who my friends were. Some people open their eyes and see you are genuinely overwhelmed even if you're putting the best face on it, others have other stories about what's happening and things unfold from there.

Even without those circumstances eg PND (and 7 out of 21 in my antenatal class went through similar so it is hardly a rare phenomenon) I would have chosen investing in my partner relationship over most friends given I vowed to do so and we share a huge number of financial and personal commitments. And to be honest in the four years between the first and third child I invested very, very little time in that relationship and most people I know have found they must renegotiate the boundaries of this relationship a little in the early years of child rearing and often parent and in law and sibling relations too.

Of course it's a choice but I don't mourn anyone who didn't have flexibility around that, nor judge them either. I did the best I could and they did too but not all friendships survive any major life transition. That's just the way things are. Thankfully a few did and I am now repaying that favour to many of them who are now in the exact same place.

I think it depends on the first few meetings. It was really apparent from very early on which non-parent friends could see how tough things were and how swamped I really was and which didn't, and that was information that informed how those relationships progressed. Honestly we could all get stuck in stories of rights and wrongs and shoulds and shouldn'ts but more often than not it is just the way the cookie crumbles. Some friendships will work out, some won't.

Blurton no I am the friend who checks it's definitely ok to visit the newborn because you might be too tired etc. And the one who buys like 20 presents for friends kids at Xmas etc.

Not sure how I'm unempathetic for pointing out that the childless aren't just having one big party the whole time.

"If your friend has distressing events in their lives, illness, trauma, caring for elderly parents, they are distressing full stop, you don't need to competitively brush them off about it. I have a lot of problems, and kids, and work full-time, but when I hear a friend who is upset/worried, then the fact they are child-free is meaningless to me. Once you start becoming unempathic to others problems, and competitive about stress, it's a downhill slope for any type of friendship."

This wasn't really why this came up. These issues came up as a means of explaining why parents might not physically have time to carve out at certain points. It has nothing to do with how hard it is as an experience. If a friend of mine called me to tell me that they were going through these things seven or eight years ago I would have dropped everything to be with them and probably spoken to them intensively on the phone every night through the crisis. I might love to do that now but there really, genuinely isn't time. That's got nothing to do with competitiveness. It's just the current context of life (and that changes all the time, too, it may be different a year from now).

Little differences in lifestyle make big differences in available time for friendships through no one's fault or choosing. For example, the time I spend on MN is when they are all at work, and I now work in the evenings to manage childcare costs. You just can't set hard and fast rules for what others should or shouldn't do eg if you have time for x you must have time for y. It is context specific. I would love if I had the wonderful egalitarian equal feminist relationship I expected on marrying and he would take over at the drop of a hat if I needed to go somewhere to be with and support a friend but shit, life didn't work out that way and negotiations around that are ongoing. Less judgement and more understanding that all our lives are less clear cut than we might have dreamed they would be when we were in our teens seems helpful in a general sense. It's not any of us to stay in that open flexible place when we feel judged or threatened, that is also true.. But in general nearly everyone is fighting some battle no one outside them fully knows and so the less we criticise or shame what we don't know the better, because it only breeds more... And being human we all can fall into that "but you don't know what it's like for MEEEEE" trap. No, I don't and I would love to know and sometimes I have nothing left to give anyone no matter how important they are to me.

I am at a point in my life where we have very few childless friends. Not because of deliberate decisions to cut them out just because actually we lead different lives with different priorities. The mutual interests change, as in some ways does your sense of humour. The things I laugh at now are not the same as before kids never thought I'd be in hysterics over the antics of toddlers Even stand up comedy likes for me have changed!

In the nicest possible way I found myself zoning out when childless friends used to talk about hobbies/work because I'd be mentally compiling a list of things to do before I got to bed. It's not that it wasn't important what they were saying, it just was hard to muster real interest when you've got a lot of plates to spin just to keep the wheels on the wagon.

Also whilst you say it's good to spend time away from your partner, actually those precious moments of peace are the only real time you get to have an uninterrupted conversation or spend a bit of time together. For long term relationship health those snatched moments are so important. Working full time and young children doesn't afford you many of those.

My priority is to invest in my family first because that's my future. Friends are great but can ebb and flow.

I would like to add I do have a very close knit circle of friends that I adore. We do things together as a group and arrange big get togethers every few months away from all our kids We laugh, cry and drink far too much but go back to our families batteries charged. It works because we all have insight into how each others lives are. There's a comfortable mutual understanding where you don't have to explain or justify, a look or brief comment says it all.

for me, there are three big things that have affected how I socialise since having DC. firstly I can't be spontaneous any more. DH works shifts, so I have to plan going out around when he's available to look after the DC. secondly, I have less spare cash, so can't meet up for really big nights as often. And thirdly I get tired, and have fuck-all chance of catching up on missed sleep due to a noisy, early-waking younger child (DH does his best to shut her up if I've been out late but it's hard).

the childfree friends I see the most of are therefore those who give me a month's notice of a boozy lunch date somewhere not too expensive. I see a LOT of that particular group .

Op, I think you are getting a really hard time here, to be honest!!

I have loads of friends with kids, most of whom are busy and yet are still able and willing to nurture friendships. We all understand those friendships need to be nurtured in a different way now, is all.

You actually sound like you understand, as much as it is ever possible for someone without kids to understand, that parenting is hard work, often relentless, and exhausting. So you've offered to be flexible and pitch in and go with the flow to make your end of the friendship as available as possible. This to me shows you are empathic and care about your friends.

I currently have eight close friends who have a child / children (2 have three kids under 5, 3 have two kids under 3, 1 has three kids under 10, and 2 have 2 kids under 3). All of them I still consider close friends because they have opened their families to me and I have opened my heart to their kids! We go swimming, to the park, we cook together, I cook for them, we visit child friendly museums, I bring wine over, I babysit occasionally. I remember when one had her first, she had PND and her son had awful allergies and reflux and I just used to go take the baby so she could sleep, and in the evenings I would sit with her while she cried and cried and just wanted someone there to watch shit tv with. I have also snuck in and cleaned flats / cooked freezable dinners / etc!

So all this to say, really, LOTS of people have children and still maintain friendships, provided those friends are willing to be flexible and accommodating.

I have lost a friend who I used to be close to after she got pregnant and then gave birth. Always has time for friends with children, never has time for me! Very disappointing actually, and hurtful. I had to re-evaluate and let that go. And that isn't because I am child free and don't get it, but because her attitude changed after she gave birth to one of "I am better than you and my life is soooo different from yours now I have a child". Bollocks.

Interestingly I am now 32 weeks pregnant and she has resurfaced. Sorry love- not interested!

It's the trekking to other bits of London that gets me. Wait till partner gets home, 40 mins on the train, 5-10 mins walk either side. Really, who can be fucked? I do do it, but Its a massive effort.

I am a bit depressed by this thread now.

It kind of hard to see where you fit in when you are unmarried and childless sometimes

Please don't feel like that, OP.

If it's any consolation I am married with kids and feel much the same. I don't know where "I" fit in even my own life most of the time. I mainly feel like an invisible boring skivvy, not helped by working in isolation in research.. And yes I am sure the kids would be devastated if I vamoosed tomorrow but it just isn't what I expected from life. I don't much have time for anyone. I am coming to the view that unless someone is very lucky and has lived in one place for a long time, has a sociable career, money, freedom from caring duties however that might manifest and possibly enjoys and is masterful at banal chit chat, 30-40 something can be a real low point for friendship maintenance and engagement.

35-45 maybe. Older friends tell me it passes but it is a long old slog.

I do make a massive effort to see all my friends, more often single childless ones to be honest. I know how important it is and I care immeasurably about them. It just about finishes me off though at the end of a week and I don't know how many other people in my situation do it. I stay in touch with emails and texts, too. Just wish I didn't have to trek to other sides of London though.

Over you misunderstood my comment, I'm saying that with children or childfree, shit is shit and if someone is having a hard time with say their parent dying, then once you stop engaging with them over the really big things in life, and get all competitive about who is the busiest, it is not good for friendships.

I get that some people especially with lots of littlies are really too busy to do anything but this is a short stage, and you don't have to be on the phone every night, but simply drop a text, phone when your children have a nap, I've kept friendships during this stage, even if they were far less intense than in child-free days.

I think I am railing against the inevitable and I should just take more of a back seat/try to be more laid back about it. If people get in touch or want to meet then great, if not I will focus my attention on other things. I am taking it too personally and the last thing I would want is for anyone to feel obliged to see me or that it is a hassle. I was thinking I was being a supportive friend by trying to make arrangements but I see now that is perhaps not the case.

Breakdown of day given as the napping gods aligned and both toddler+baby slept at the same time for 2 whole hours!!! .

I do make an effort with childless friends. We go out for coffees or for walks or just visit each others houses. But for me it's far easier to meet with other parents. Who else is up 4hrs already and waiting for the zoo to open?!

Over - I really hope it works for it for you with your friend. This thread has been depressing in so many ways because of the implied messages that parents are more busy and more important than non parents. Not all of us are like that, I promise, and hopefully some of your friends with children are like that too.

If your friend prefers and chooses to spend time with mummy friends now, then good luck to her and I hope that she finds whatever she is looking for with them. However, I can guarantee that in a few years time she will regret cutting you off. I've been there. I've been the one abandoned and then when I had children they al, came crawling back because I was then a parent and so understood and all that bollocks. The truth was, I didn't want anything to do with the, because we had drifted apart and I had a new group of friends who - reproductive status aside - better met my needs as friends.

Someone wise, and not as bitter and cynical as me, once said that it's not the length of time that someone is in your life for, but how they enrich it.

People aren't trying to make you feel bad, but as you say yourself, don't take it personally. They probably aren't investing in friendships, their own relationship with their partner or even themselves right now. It is a pretty brief stage and I think if you can just cut them a bit of slack and remind them you exist with a text now and then, you will pick it up again soon and remain good friends. I would love a child free friend for example to invite the family round for lunch on a weekend, just a plate of pasta or whatever, or to suggest we went for a coffee at a kid friendly pub. Its hard they can't offer much back right now but the thing about friends is you need a few for different times and who knows what the future holds?

I'm crap with my friends now. I admit it. Doesn't mean I don't care But my priorities are totally different and I have far more time restraints than when I worked full time. Thinking about 3 others priorities above my own all the time. I never thought I'd be like this but I have to. I've ditched needy friends.

I try really hard to keep up with single and childless friends but often it's impossible to find something we all want to or can do. And we try but it isn't a success.
So I've arranged lunch with my single working friend and one DC who was two. His pizza took forever to come and then was way too hot so he screamed and of course there was no adult conversation. Then we tried again about 18 months later in a different cafe but I forgot it had a gift shop with toys and this time DS' lunch came first and he finished it and then I had to chase him to stop him grabbing all the toys. Again no adult conversation.

Another friend often pops over after work if she ends up her day near us but of course this is usually bedtime so again no adult conversation. If she can stay for the evening we get a takeaway though which can work well (unless the DCs are SO excited by a visitor that they won't settle). She did ask us if we wanted to go on a four hour guided nature walk (she goes away a lot for work and we wanted to catch up but that was what she'd planned that weekend). We politely declined, as did she when we asked if she wanted to come to the park with us. But frankly we cannot go on a four hour walk whereas she can come to the park.

We often ask another friend to Sunday lunch which works well (she didn't even stop coming when DS threw his sippy cup into her dinner) and now DS is a bit more able to take part in wider ranging activities she's asked us to come and pick fruit at the allotment.

So there are things that single friends and those with DC can do but there are also some activities either you wish you hadn't tried or you know won't work.