To think that having a child doesn't absolve you from making an effort with friends?

[Overthinker2016]

Many of my friends are married with children.

I get that their priorities are different from mine now. I get that they are "busier" than childless me (although busy is a bit subjective I think). I am happy to spend time with their children and/or OH for what it's worth (if I was invited to!)

However AIBU to think they should still make a bit of an effort to keep in touch? One friend in particular has been coming back to me with dates since about February .

Do I cut them some slack and just keep on being the one making the effort or just stop and lose some otherwise very nice friends.

I'm sorry that that's how things have turned out for you, op. Have you actually told your friend that and that you would like to see her child? I think, after the initial showing off of a tiny baby stage, and definitely in the toddler stage, my default assumption has been that those without children won't be desperately interested in doing things with small children, unless they expressly say they are. A childless friend of mine has actually become a much closer friend through the baby years simply by being very open about her wish to have a relationship with friends' children.

I would reiterate what other have said about relentlesness, sleep deprivation, feeling you have nothing much to talk about except poo etc. But also add that I found our own wider families' demands also increased massively. Grandparents suddenly want to visit much more and whereas previously I might have met a friend while dh saw parents, once babies came along they wanted to see the baby all the time and I was bf so couldn't just leave them to it. Our siblings are also all similar ages and all had children at similar times so there's suddenly nieces and nephew's christening , birthdays etc too.

Tbh, a text doesn't seem much, I know, but I frequently get to the end of a day with two small children and realise I haven't finished the text or email I meant to send at 10am

I am going to see an old friend this weekend. I haven't seen him since pre kids days. They are 6, 4 and 2 and I had PND twice, moved countries, moved houses three times in a year due to rentals falling through, got a new job, watched that business collapse, had intensive counselling, had to leave my profession due to it not being recognised in my new country, my father got a terminal illness, my sister lost a baby and I began retraining in a new career. He knows very little of it. I really haven't had the time to even get in touch to update. I don't even think my circumstances are that unusual. I meet people all the time for whom the child bearing/rearing years have been an intense whirlwind.

Apologies for typos. My iPad hates me.

I'm really sick of the excuses that parents make for not keeping in contact with those who aren't parents. Especially I a. Sick of the endless justification about why you can't answer a simple text or Facebook message. Most mothers of young children manage to meet and talk to other mothers of young children. Why not loyal and supportive friends ? It really is just laziness in some cases and in others something worse - it is a dismissal because that person gas put.ived their usefulness.

Or.... It might not be about you

Fusion - most of what you have mentioned is not about children though - it is life happening and being tough for you.

I could send a "quick text" to a friend, but what would it say? Unless you have got into a friendly text dialogue (which is great) a lot of people use texts to make arrangements to meet - so I would put off texting until I had a time in mind to meet, which just prolongs things.

But it helps to keep in contact. Just a - how are you?
And anyone who posts on mumsnet has time to do this.

But no one on mumsnet guilt trips you if you don't post for a few days.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to trot out the "if you have time to be on mn then you have time for a text" line.

I see many posters posting at unsociable hours, usually during night wakings for company/advice. I don't think any of my childless friends would appreciate me texting them at 3am instead.

I've always been busy. Now I do about 16 hours childcare a day plus 4 hours paid work in the week and on the weekend I get 24 hours off and then do 24 hours 'on call' as we call it! I am tired.

The friends I see a lot are the ones who are easy to see.

A few people I've met post baby are really stressy and fussy around babies which I just can't cope with at the moment. I don't sleep in longer than 1 and a half hour blocks, I cannot cope with any stress at all!

Also agree with pp who said you don't feel guilty if you don't respond to mumsnet after a few days.

My house is not suitable for guests.

I forget to respond to messages.

But if a friend messaged me saying they wanted to be part of my child's life and wanted to help me I would love that and try and facilitate that. You would have to cope with my disaster of a home though.

PND isn't about kids? Who knew? The point is that when you have kids life happens and is tough and you don't get to make it about you. You have to keep the show on the road and make multiple packed lunches, not one, get multiple people up out and ready every morning (generally also while dealing with screaming and fighting and soothing bumps etc), clear up and clean after multiple people over and over like Groundhog Day several times a day, pick up and prepare food for and clear after multiple people, bath and put multiple kids to bed not just yourself.

It is just a lot more work than it is at other times and in other life contexts and if life is happening (as it does in these years, shockingly) and there is any sickness or unemployment or work hassles or relationship difficulties or death on top of all that there isn't the same bandwidth as if you didn't have so much time and energy taken up by all of those activities on repeat.

It's hardly rocket science. If you have to care 24-7 for anyone and particularly multiple people be they kids or parents you won't have so much time for chats and drinks and investing in friendship even if you would like to.

And the bottom line? If you want someone in your life you make the effort and if it is repaid to your satisfaction and/or you can see they're just going through a very busy period in life you continue. Or if not you let it go.

I read something this week that said really our true friendships need to be invested in weekly or monthly to survive. I don't have any of those people locally having moved so much and that means I, like all humans. also need to invest in having a community to actually have good relationships and health and happiness long term. Believe me I would far rather spend time with old close friends from uni but they do fall off the priority list. That's not something wanted or willed it just is... And everyone has to deal with change and impermanence and friendships may decline in priority at certain points no matter how much we wish otherwise.

The thing is about meeting up with my friends is everyone understands and doesn't hold a grudge if you cancel last minute, or leave half way through something, or are massively late due to baby related drama.
Friends without children seem to expect you and baby to somehow be on your best behaviour. Mine also always seem to be so busy we have to fix dates about 2 months in advance and by the time it's come round my baby's routine has changed again so what seemed like a good time/ plan isn't anymore.
I also find mine are very uninterested in baby talk. I'm expected to just carry on being the same person with a baby in tow rather than someone whose entire mind has been turned upside down. Whereas, for better or for worse, my baby is mostly what I think about and have to talk about. He's what I do all day. I don't do much else, read or watch to much as a don't have time and have no support. If something life changing had happened to them it would quite rightly dominate conversation. If they'd changed careers or something I would ask them loads of questions about it.
We do have one lot of childless friends who are awesome. Meeting up with them- ironically for long and logistically complicated days out because we live a way apart- is a dream.

imwithspud said: "I don't think any of my childless friends would appreciate me texting them at 3am instead."

Why? My phone is on silent, it wouldn't wake me up. But I would see it in the morning and just reply "Great to hear from you, glad you're doing OK, let me know if you need anything x"

Sorry, but if you can make time to send texts to mum friends to organise a play date, you can make time to send texts to non-parent friends. They take the same amount of time and effort. It's not about having great big long chats or even necessarily arranging to meet. It's just a basic acknowledgement once every couple of months that the friends that you've known for years and years, have been with you through every problem, dropped everything to help you out in a crisis, are still your friends, even if you genuinely don't have the time for them.

Sadly for you, friendships have a different priority for different people. At different times in their lives. For your friend, it is low priority to her at the moment. You don't know why at the moment and that is what is upsetting for you, as you feel 'used' and then tossed aside now she has a husband and child.

In reality, there may be a multitude of reasons she doesn't want to make time for your friendship. It could be any of these: she doesn't have time as she is literally run ragged all day/night by an energetic toddler, she feels depressed and has low esteem following the birth of her child, she doesn't feel like leaving the comfort of her house, she doesn't think you'd enjoy being in her company when she's got to deal with her toddler every minute and so the conversation won't flow. It could also be something a bit more 'personal' but equally out of your/her control: she doesn't think the same way anymore and has moved into a different sphere in her life, so she might not think you'd have much in common to chat about.

The only way you are going to find out is to be straight with her in a non-aggressive way. So, text/call her and say 'I'd really love to meet up with you - soft play on Sat morning for coffee?' If she declines say 'I'm worried we haven't seen eachother for ages. Is everything alright?' Then she might open up and let you know. Or she might shut down the conversation. At which point you can either perservere or move on.

It's not about being 'used', it's about moving into different stages of life. I've recently been sort of side lined from my social group and it's been really hurtful so I completely understand those feelings of rejection and low self worth. But sometimes friendships run their course. The only way for you to find out if this has happened is to ask if everything is alright.

MUM friends, not my friends. Typo.

But we read all the time on MN how people with small children should still invest in their couple relationships, make time for their partners etc...and anyone who points out that they just can't be arsed is firmly reproved. And that's with said partner being quite resident and probably going to stay in situ even after a few years of exhausted growling at each other (believe me, I know whereof I speak).

A brief text saying 'Today I have cleared up tea approximately a million times, argued over whether the cat's bowl is a suitable receptacle for eating out of, and have just realised we have run out of anything remotely alcoholic in the house' is possible to send. And is the sort of thing that keeps a friendship going in those exhausted, worn-down and very boring years.

Fusion - my point is that a lot of what you mentioned isn't child related eg illness, new jobs etc.

Newsflash: the childless have these issues too. They also have to keep the show on the road.

"the point is that when you have children life happens and is tough". That is also the case for the childless. But the childless also have loneliness to contend with as they may not have a partner or kids to go through these experiences with them.

Sigh. I am not at all surprised that you are struggling to maintain these friendships with this attitude.

The point is that no, if you're childless you are NOT contending with all these issues while simultaneously managing the lives of multiple others eg dressing them, feeding them, cooking for them, cleaning them, cleaning up after them, bathing them, putting them to sleep, ferrying them places. And that's a very cursory list of all the boring everyday Groundhog shite that is five times and more the amount it was before they were around.

And if you think people in families aren't lonely you are also deluded. For many people it can be the loneliest time of life. You may be surrounded by people with limited opportunity to be seen as yourself without endless demands and tasks.

And still, as before, if you want to maintain the friendship and it natters to you, you take a flexible approach and adopt the other's perspective. Or you decide you are not that into them and leave it. And vice versa. You simply can't expect others to revolve their lives around your needs while arguing their experience of their lives which you haven't lived is not what they tell you it is.

And the research bears that out by the way. Parents are repeatedly found to be more lonely, less happy and less self-actualising (eg feeling they are living their best lives in line with their traits and abilities) than non-parents.

I love my kids but the day to day reality is a boring thankless expensive lonely slog more often than not. So whiney "friends" who are inflexible and demanding and sure that I could be doing more than I am really don't evoke my desire to meet them. Plenty of childless people thankfully don't assume that every missed call or rejected invitation is a personal slight. Others can swing for it. I already have enough children in my life.

Some people find it really hard for the first few years, and you will be at the bottom of their priority list. They may have PND and sleeplessness and marriage problems combined with a lack of time. Just be supportive and send the occasional friendly message.

It does seem rude when you are on the receiving end though.

Most people seem to come out of the tunnel after the first couple of years but not always! Most of my friends have been keen to stay in touch but it's been less often and at their convenience. As the kids get older they are keener to get back to normal again but you have to be a bit patient, and things are never going to be the same again as they do have this whole other world now.

Fusion - did you actually read my post? I'm not expecting anyone to rearrange their life around me. Whatsoever. I am happy to be flexible. I have not been demanding of time. I'm not whiney.

Your post is really rude tbh.

Essentially you view your time as more important than mine because you are a parent and I'm not.

I think you're being mean fusion - OP is not whining, she's repeatedly stated that she is not expecting frequent catch ups but would like to see her friend every few months which is hardly extreme. She's also said that she's happy to go round for a cup of tea or a quick catch up so your portrayal of her attitude as inflexible and demanding is really out of line when she's just trying to be a good friend.

I am not talking about OP in particular and to be honest I haven't read the whole thread as being about the OP. If anything I think it is mean when people share their experiences to suggest that things like PND or the continuous intense everyday hassles of parenting are irrelevant as to why people (in the general) make less effort at certain points.

I have no idea if the OP is personally whiney but if I told her that I couldn't make time because of PND and difficult life circumstances and she said "newsflash my life is hard too and none of that has anything to do with parenting anyway" I wouldn't want to see her much. Whether she has done this with said friend I hardly know but that attitude may be unintentionally shining through.

The OP is refusing to quite believe that life with small children is busier than her own life.
Actually I really mean a woman's life as even very involved fathers have a knack of not needing to do the remembering/planning/worrying side of things.
Business does depend on the support available but most of us don't live with night nannies or personal assistants.
The thing is that it does, to some extent, ease as the dcs get older, but friends may not have stuck around for those early years.