To think that having a child doesn't absolve you from making an effort with friends?

[Overthinker2016]

Many of my friends are married with children.

I get that their priorities are different from mine now. I get that they are "busier" than childless me (although busy is a bit subjective I think). I am happy to spend time with their children and/or OH for what it's worth (if I was invited to!)

However AIBU to think they should still make a bit of an effort to keep in touch? One friend in particular has been coming back to me with dates since about February .

Do I cut them some slack and just keep on being the one making the effort or just stop and lose some otherwise very nice friends.

Felco - that is fair enough. Some people like quiet. Totally fine.

Noted that you wouldn't want me as a friend!

Tbf to me, I put a lot of effort into my friendships. I don't have a husband and children, or any siblings so my friends are all I've got. Apart from my parents who are getting on a bit. For me it is really important to have friends and maintain friendships. I like a bit of down / alone time too but these friendships are important to me Which is why I'm fretting about it and posting about it. I also think she might benefit from some time with me - it's good to have

Time away from your partner ( I think anyway).

Yorkieheaven thanks for your post - I understand what you are saying.

I always cringe at these threads because it's only a matter of time before someone will wheel out the old "people who are childless cannot understand." And it's not true, not at all. However, it is true that it is difficult to pick up the insight any other way than actually caring for kids - people never seem to talk about it. IME, nobody really wants to listen to it.

So, for my own sanity, some answers to a couple of your comments:

I do think parents are busy. However some parents do seem to be able to be social others aren't.

But the workload with kids varies massively depending on the ages - both in terms of the kids' behaviour and also whether they are in nursery/school, the age gap (close in age kids tend to be harder in the early years, easier as they get older), the number of kids, whether there are any family/friends who can do babysitting, whether there is any money for private nursery or childminder or babysitter, whether they nap or sleep well - and that's to say nothing of illness or special needs. So you know I'm not surprised if there's a difference in your parent friends' sociability.

I do think I'm busy myself too though - I have a FT job which demands unpaid overtime ie I never just work 9 till 5. I also spend at least another two evenings a week on a volunteering activity for my local community.

That is busy, but when my kids were under 2 my working day with them lasted from 6am (when I started cooking lunch/dinner for them, as I couldn't do it when they were awake - not enough uninterrupted time) until 7.30pm, with about half an hour for lunch while they were napping. During the time they were awake I would need to intervene with one or other of them - pay active attention, pull them out of harm's way etc - I would say about once every 2 minutes average. It was not possible to carry on a conversation - it was hard sometimes even to be able to, e.g. use a supermarket checkout, to say the things I needed to to be able to pay etc, there was so little respite from the two of them. Weekends were better as my DH was there but that just took it from being horrific to doable. Sometimes we would offer each other a solo day, one of us look after the kids solo while the other gets a day off - but the tiredness of having to do 6 days a week solo to "earn" a day off in return was too hard and we gave it up.

I was lucky in that my kids slept fairly well - that means, for the first four months whoever looked after them in the night never got more than 1h 20 uninterrupted sleep. DH did the weekend shifts and also a Thursday night, took Fridays off as holiday, but after three months his work started complaining about this arrangement so I did an additional month of hardly any sleep, 5 days a week. (And I had it easy, as I didn't breastfeed and could share the night feeds). After that things got better: the feeds fell into a routine and spaced out to every 4 hours, so we just had to feed them at 11pm and 3am. DD2 kept the 3am feed until she was 13 months old despite us trying very hard to wean her off it. Sleep goes out the window when they are ill of course, and what tends to happen is that even with something as minor as a cold you have 10 days' crap sleep as one and then the other gets ill, and then after that you get ill, but now you're also massively sleep deprived - and overworked, if you're working, as you'll have had (unpaid) time off to look after the kids while they were ill and the work will be mounting up on your desk.

So yeah, I guess there are childless people who're busier than that - but I suspect those are like on-call junior doctors maybe, and of course other carers, particularly elderly carers of elderly partners. I think those people are busier than parents of small children. I don't think many other people are as busy as that.

(Having said that, my kids are 4 now and I have all kinds of free time even while I am looking after them. So if you hang on a year or two it will probably sort itself out with your friend)

I've lost a lot of friends since I had kids. Partly due to the fact that my house is never tidy enough to invite people round!

Good post toomuchtooold

I am now the proud owner of two teenagers and wishing they'd spend a bit more time with me. Ironically

Just my perspective....

When I had my son id had nine months of unrelenting hyperemesis. I was vomiting dozens of times a day and I felt like shit. I also had spd, which I still have ten months after birth so I'm in constant pain.
We'd just built a house and moved in it and had boxes everywhere. I was too crippled to unpack. I had a complex c section and was a mess for weeks after. The baby never slept and still now, at ten months, I haven't had more than one or two hours of sleep. We still havemt finished unpacking
Socialising, even just having people round, means I have to spend a whole day cleaning whilst toting around a grumpy sleep deprived baby. Then the next day I can barely walk. I've no friends or family near to mind the baby so I can't go out at night. I'm depressed, in pain and exhausted to a degree I would previously have thought not compatible with life.

Socialising now is something that's just an abstract idea. Maybe in a few years.

Yes you should cut them some slack.
I'm a very introverted person so I do like to socialise but it has to be when I feel up to it.

Before I had children, the "close" friends I had (Still speak to them sometimes. Lifelong friends from school) were just not compatible with me so I didn't really like to spend much time with them even though they kept hassling me and calling me for not wanting to join them. Different interests and different personalities just got in the way for me. When I branched out and made my own friends when I moved to a different college I was much happier to go out and have fun.
Now that I have children, those friends I didn't have much in common with I would not go out of my way to make any effort to arrange childcare, spend family money, travel etc to see them. I really wouldn't. Even when I was pregnant with my first child they were still in a very school/childish mindset and tried to push the whole "friends before everyone else. We are for life. Blah blah blah" I grew so tired of them and I'm actually so glad they leave me alone now I have children.

Since having children I've met some of the loveliest friends I have ever had. Sure I have some lovely childless friends too, but my friendships have changed as I have changed.

I love meeting up with my friends when I can and when I'm up to it. But in all honesty, having children does become a barrier to being able to do what you want when you want. And even when you are given an invite for a night out, sometimes you are just too bloody exhausted, skint, or your child is poorly or there is nobody to babysit for you. These might seem like excuse after excuse but they are a reality when ou have children. So yeah, I'd cut them some slack

I complete agree though there's no need to not even bother with their friends once they have children.

I think it's a middle ground that needs to be met really.

As in - I completely agree that if a friend with a child can't at least agree to meet every 2 or 3 months even for an hour somewhere as long as the friend acknowledges one of the children might have to come along then they aren't really too invested in the friendship (this is for friends who are close obviously those further afield would be more like a couple of times a year).

However if a childless friend expected every week without fail to do something then I think they would be being too demanding.

But that's my own personal opinion.

I do think it's hard to understand if you don't have children just like it's hard for someone with children who doesn't work / doesn't work a lot how difficult it is for someone who works 40+ hours a week and feels tied down and constantly in work mode.

I have dc 2 and 4 and I have some friends with kids and some without. I love spending time with all of them and work hard to find time and energy to do this.

My childless friends are very understanding and totally get why it's tricky to get out. They will arrange to meet near me or whatever works.

What I find more difficult is thst I just don't have the disposable income to go out much. It's normal for them to spend 30 quid on a midweek pub meal, drinks and taxi. That's a lot of money for me and i often drive and don't drink to save money.

For me it's really valuable to maintain those friendships with childless friends. We hardly talk about kids at all which helps me get perspective on things. When I see my friends who have kids, sometimes we talk about them a lot and it can make me anxious as I compare development and I worry my dd is behind or that I'm a crap parent.

So Yanbu at all op..Although I find visitors a bit stressful on a weeknight and would not want a friend popping over.

YANBU, DH and I have managed to maintain friendships with friends in your position since having our DD a few years ago. I suspect your friend is either not that bothered about the friendship, or totally engrossed with motherhood. You sound like a super friend - give up on her for a bit and focus on others (do send her DC bday and Xmas gifts though) and it could be she'll re-emerge in a year or two.

When the dc were little that "come out for a couple of hours" seemed like an intrusion on my desperately needed sleep time. I was embarrassed to have people round because the house looked like a bomb had hit it and then stirred the contents.

Now the dc are older, I'm often picking one or other of them up after time I would want to be out by. The house doesn't look quite as bad, but I still feel I need to tidy up to make it presentable, so someone asking to come round I will want to factor in if I have time to tidy first.

Now I do put some effort in to meeting with friends. However I rarely feel like it beforehand. I enjoy it when it happens and think I want to do it more. But beforehand I really have to get my head round it.

No, it doesn't. I'm in a similar situation with a friend. She had a baby, met and made new mum friends, and has ditched me. I tried really hard during her pregnancy and for the first 18mth of her DC's life to be helpful, thoughtful and kind (I think I succeeded, but it isn't easy to 'get' it when you aren't going through that stage of your life) and when DC came along to do things that were baby/toddler friendly. I cooked her home cooked meals for when she got home for her and her DH to freeze when we first went round to see her, DH and DC. I arranged to meet up at hers, around nap time, at cafes with toys and books for her DC to play with, or at museums that I knew her DC loved so her DC wasn't stuck doing something DC would hate when I asked her if she wanted to meet up.
I slowly realised our friendship was entirely one sided and that she only made time for her mum friends and decided to leave it till she contacted me. It's been about 8 months and I don't think she'll ever make the effort to watsapp or facebook me again! I see her DH occasionally (I've known him longer than her as we went to uni together). I'm spending my time and efforts on my friends that do reciprocate the friendship, although I have to admit it does hurt. I feel like I've been put in a 'not mum' box and shelved!

I think you should persevere OP. When my DD was little, she was a nightmare baby/toddler and I was a single parent juggling work, parenting and looking after the house on my own. I didn't have the time or the energy to make an effort to socialise. Luckily, I had a few good friends who persevered and would often just show up at my door with nice food or little bits for the baby. They'd happily sit with baby so I could have a nap/catch up on the housework.

I am eternally grateful to those friends for the effort and support they gave, and funnily enough things have almost gone full circle.

My DD is now 11 and is easy to look after, spends lots of time out and about with her friends and loves her sleep more than me, whereas my friends have only started having children in the last few years. It is now my turn to make the effort, to help out and to maintain these friendships which I am happy to do.

Just today in fact, DD visited a close friend who has baby twins. DD entertained the babies while my friend and I had a good catch up, we all did a bit of a tidy up of her house together then DD and I fed a baby each while friend put her feet up and had a cup of tea. If anything, our friendship is stronger than ever.

So if I were you, I'd keep making the effort. It may well pay off in the long run.

I've got children and find I see even less of my friends who have children despite having children of similar ages.

I found in the past that I had friends who when they had children started socialising with other women with kids, and ignored their childless friends. And then after about 3 years contacted childless friends wanting to make contact.

Doorstep her with cake, crisps, gin and a dvd box set in case she just wants company and can't handle a conversation. Be prepared for her to cry/fall asleep on you. She will love you for it.

Time pressures might not be the only thing going on here. There are times I'd desperately love to catch up with my pre-baby friends. But I don't call or invite them over because

a) I am convinced that they would take one look at me and realise that I haven't got a fucking clue what I'm doing and I'm drowning in this motherhood shit. And I'm embarrassed by how crap I feel I am at this thing I spent years trying to do and 9 months blathering on about.

b) all I have to talk about is the inane trivia of childcare and housework. Or the petty disputes I have with my husband about the childcare and the housework. I used to be an interesting person with an interesting life and interesting things to say. Sometimes the most exciting thing that happens to me is that I manage to put the washing away without waking the baby. Achievement of the week! I imagine my interesting child free friends don't want to hear about this.

I'm pretty sure most new mothers feel like this but there's a weird conspiracy whereby no one mentions it. If you break the silence and admit how terrible and terrifying it is sometimes, people will think you're the failure.

So, maybe she's not all busy being loved up with her baby and getting on with mum things. Maybe she's sat in a heap longing to call you but clueless as to what she'd say.

Not read every single one of the comments so sorry if I'm repeating.

I get that mums are really very busy but a half decent friend should make some effort even if it's an hour or two every few months. I wouldn't ever ditch a friend because they have had a child/children but I've definitely been ditched for NOT having any. I don't mind helping out or doing what suits the friend but I do mind being the one putting in 99% of the effort.

Well my money is on the op. You sound the kindest and most thoughtful person lovely and my guess is your friends take you for granted, in the nicest way, and know you will always be there for them don't realise how you feel.

Hope they are mumsneters and read your op.

However if you need company keep posting

burdog

She sounds mean

Is anyone else thinking
..there is no evening by the time you get the kids to sleep....the thoughtful socialising makes me feel sick.

I honestly think you are better making some new friends without kids who will be able to meet your high expectations. Your friend is knackered because she is no longer living for herself.

I'm trying to tell my brother expecting his first child soon what it's like when the baby arrives.

Ok it definitely depends on the baby you "get" when my dd was born I was 25 and still thought I was 18. My dps Birthday was 10 days after she was born. I was able to fit into size 8 jeans half the battle I stayed out all Night and didn't have a hangover. Fast forward when i had my ds 5 years later I was overweight and depressed and then I had pnd.

My point is no one knows what having a baby and being a parent will do to you physically and mentally and what it will do to your relationship. My personal opinion parenthood is the hardest thing anyone can do.

Please give your friend a break. Have an honest talk and try work it out

I like a bit of down / alone time too but these friendships are important to me which is why I'm fretting about it and posting about it

They probably get about an hour's down/alone time at 9pm at night which they use to stare at a TV in silence and try to recuperate.

Please do note the time I'm on here writing this. I am not an insomniac I'm just a parent.

You don't think you are asking for much, but look back through the comments and see how many people with children have described friendship as 'effort'.

Your inverted commas in busy and comparison of some volunteering and overtime with being 'on' 24/7 with a young child is exactly why parents end up making mum friends.

The friends I have with older kids or no kids expect me to make eye contact when conversing and not break them off mid sentence. I do see them, but honestly it's not a lot of fun. It's sometimes like going for a cuppa with an older more demanding child.

The childless ones also often judge your parenting. I know this because when the subject come up they always tell some story about their badly behaved nephew or their friend's child with awful cradle cap which the mother has failed to sort out etc etc. And you feel like screaming 'you have no fucking idea' or just laughing hysterically.

Is anyone else thinking
..there is no evening by the time you get the kids to sleep....the thoughtful socialising makes me feel sick.

Yes.

Op, last night I was up till 4. Ds slept 4-6 then head butted me awake. I'm in agony with my hips and back and I'm so sleep deprived it's dangerous.
Any spare time I get I just want to sit quietly with a cup of tea or some sewing. I don't have the physical time or the mental energy to socialise. I've been out by myself once in the ten months he was born, and that was to the doctor. I can't go out once he's in bed because he doesn't stay asleep.

If you want to see your friend, and she's flaking, it may just be that she's exhausted. Why not go round at a time that suits her, make her a cuppa, play with the baby and do something non demanding?

The problem with that suggestion is that if you are working full time, often there is no time to go around when you are not at work, that also suits mums.